Will I be living my life like this?

[AliceinWonderhell]

DSS (10) has explained what he, and his Mum, would like the court to put in place once his Mums application to have the contact order amended is heard.

He'd like regular contact to be available to him, here, as a member of our family - preferably for 1 week in every 3. But, he doesn't want to have to come every time, because something might happen (between his mum and dad) between visits that results in him being scared to come - so he wants to be able to decide whether or not he's coming "at the time". He also wants to be able to cut visits short if something happens while he's with us that he doesn't like - but he knows he can only do that if his mum isn't at work.

He wants me to explain this to my DD (13), so that she understands and doesn't get upset with him when he doesn't come and spend time with us at the last minute - because he doesn't think it's fair that I've decided that DD will never be here when he is.

He was very clear and articulate when he explained it, and presented it as what 'we' want, meaning him and his Mum. The concept that DH might not agree hadn't occurred to him and he said that the court will 'make' DH do what they say.

sparkly I appreciate you don't agree, however perhaps it would reassure you that this is not a decision I have made alone.
DDs Dad and I have agreed together that this is right for her - based on our knowledge of our daughter, her life experiences and our own values.

I presented it to my DH as a non-negotiable; I am prepared to lose my home and family to do what DDs dad and I believe is right for her. It certainly isn't a petulant knee-jerk reaction just because I don't like DSS messing me about.

DDs dad has been incredibly understanding - I'm not sure I would have been quite so tolerant in the same scenario - he has to trust my judgement that there is no risk to DD despite what DSS has said about being scared of his Dad.

So how would she respond to the question I asked earlier?

Based on conversations I have had with her, she (quite reasonably) would like to know whether DSS will be here or not when she arrives. They enjoy each others company, she will sometimes choose to stay in with him rather than go out with school friends, they do have things in common - they are friends as well as step siblings.

One of the values DDs dad and I share is not placing responsibility onto DD to help 'fix' DSS issues. We do not believe it is appropriate to explain that DSS is having issues and that we (including her) have to make adjustments and allowances in order for him to be happy to spend time with us.

Keeping her and DSS apart protects him from her frustration/confusion about the situation as well. DSS mum said to DH that he should just explain DSS behaviour to my DD. as DH replied, he doesn't understand it, so why on earth would a child? If/when DSS turns up and expects DD to be friendly and behave as if nothing has happened, he's going to be very upset if DD rejects his friendly advances the way that she did to DSD!

Well I'm sorry but the fact that you would choose to leave your marriage and home over this, which would surely be FAR more disruptive to your dd shows that you are allowing the situation to have far more power than is warranted. You say you don't think your dd should help fix the situation? That's not how it has to be. She doesn't have to DO anything, just be aware that he might not be around sometimes, which as the alternative is that you are now preventing them from ever seeing each other again really isn't that big a deal is it? You are not asking for her help just explaining what's going on.

I think you are hurt and stressed by a situation that is totally out of your control and you are trying to take some control back, which is understandable but I don't agree you are protecting your dd from anything you are just escalating an already rubbish situation and not helping her to learn to deal with conflict.

She doesn't have to DO anything, just be aware that he might not be around sometimes

What about her emotional reaction to DSS not being around sometimes? What should she do about her feelings?

Either she's going to miss him and feel hurt when he decides not to see her - something I can protect her from, or she's not going to be bothered - and if that is the case, it doesn't matter if I engineer a situation that prevents them seeing each other, does it?

From what you have written, it sounds as if you consider DDs feelings to be inconsequential - unlike DSS's, whose feelings of injustice should be appeased by allowing him to continue to see DD when he wants to.

Forgive me, I'm not going to use this as a learning experience for my DD in how to deal with her emotions. Plenty of DCs never experience repeated rejection by a stepsib and still grow up to be well balanced adults.

What should she do about her feelings? Be able to talk about them to you of course. Perhaps she'll learn to deal with conflict, family or otherwise without dishing out threats to never see people again, leave or other punitive measures when they don't do things exactly how she wants them done?

Please, again don't put words into my mouth. I've barely mentioned your dss or his feelings, just suggested ways in which your dd might cope with the perceived rejection that YOU are insisting is the case here.

As for learning to deal with rejection by a step sibling, you're right, many people don't have to learn how to deal with it but you insist it's happening to your dd so isn't it best she does face it? Although from what you've written it seems more that dss is rejecting his Dad and your family set up, ably assisted by his mother, yet you insist on making your dd into the victim of the piece. She isn't unless you make her be.

You're pissed off about this and I would be too but I think you're dressing it up as a personal attack on your dd in order when it isn't at all. It all seems a bit controlling and "well if you don't come when WE want you to then you can't see dd at all!" It's unfair alright on BOTH of those children. I think by doing that you are behaving almost as badly as dss's mother.

Why don't you try ASKING your 13 year old dd how she feels instead of deciding for her? Shes not a small child. It seems to me that all the adults are getting all puffed up over this and taking their children along for the ride. However you seem set on your path so good luck with it all.

from what you've written it seems more that dss is rejecting his Dad and your family set up, ably assisted by his mother, yet you insist on making your dd into the victim of the piece. She isn't unless you make her be

DD is a member of the family that DSS is rejecting - how can it not be about her?

As I said, this is not a decision I have taken in isolation - if I were to disagree with DDs dad and shared your belief that it won't do DD any harm to continue to be caught in the middle then he would take steps to protect her himself. He would be well within his rights to prevent her having any contact with DSD, DSS and my DH; given that their family set up reads like a Jeremy Kyle script at the moment. As it is, we have agreed that this is the least damaging option - in an ideal world, none of this would be happening, but hey - I knew what I was getting into, didn't I?

Your ex sounds controlling too. What steps would he be able to take?

Sparkly, I think you make a valid point. The thing is where do you draw the line? What is a "learning experience" and what is rejection which could do long term emotional damage?

I'm in a similar position to op in that my dss doesn't see us anymore but used to spend every waking minute with my ds when he was here. Ds has been very upset by dss and his dropping if him (dss was 13, ds 14 when he just dropped the entire family with not even a text to ds since). He has also experienced a lifetime of rejection from his own father who just think she can pick him up and drop him at will.

How many times does a kid have to accept rejection as a "learning experience" before it becomes emotionally damaging?

That right sparkly.

My DDs Dad is a controlling bastard because he cares about her, I'm emotionally abusing DD and DSS by not letting DSS choose when he sees her, and my DH doesn't deserve to be a Dad because his DCs mum says so.

I've totally misread the whole situation and all the other posters on this thread are wrong as well.

Well you need to decide which is more damaging don't you?

"Dd, dss is going through a hard time at the moment, a bit like with dss. It's got absolutely nothing to do with you, he's only ten and confused so its going to be a bit uncertain when he visits for a while. But you WILL be seeing him and hopefully it's all going to get sorted soon, SD and I are working towards that, how do you feel about it?"

Or

"Dd you will not be seeing dss anymore because he's a bit uncertain about visits and not sure how he wants things to be so to protect you we have decided to curtail the relationship entirely, in fact if things don't get sorted then SD and I may split up."

Or

Will you just ignore the whole thing entirely and not explain anything to her? Because it seems to me that by far the least damaging and least making a big meal out of it is the first option.

I still think its about you regaining some control and I think there are far more problems in your relationship then this if you're prepared to split with your dh over it.

sparkly for someone who gets defensive when people put words in your mouth you sure are a master at it!

What kind of mother tells their DC that they might split up with their DH? Despite never having made any reference to what I have said to DD about the situation, you have hypothesised what I will say/have said.
The fact that you even consider telling her that DH and I might split says a great deal about your own parenting style - most parents wouldn't even contemplate it as a possibility, because they know the damage they would do. But then most mothers wouldn't tell their DCs that they are going to have their fathers PR removed, either.

Are you my DSC mum, by any chance?

redhen What will you do if/when your DSS gets back in touch?
Will you leave your DS to deal with it, or put boundaries in place to protect him until things have stabilised?

I have told dp that I expect him to build a relationship with dss first away from our home and ds and myself.

I feel very protective of ds on this and I am angry with dss, ex wife, cafcass, the whole system and to an extent dp for not protecting ds.

I am adamant that he's not going to stroll into ds and my life after all this time as if nothing has happened, whilst not making any changes to ensure it doesn't all happen again.

The biggest issue was that dss had far more of a relationship with ds than he did his own father. Dp and dss will need to work on that rather than both using ds as either a babysitter or an avoidance of having to spend time with dad.

Don't think so my ex isn't married.

I didn't put words into your mouth at all. I didn't say you said those things .

It's says nothing at all about my parenting style at all. Don't be ridiculous. I am trying to ask you (which you've yet to answer) which of those scenarios would be less damaging for your dd. One where a brief non hysterical, age appropriate explanation is given or one where she never sees her dss again and you and her SD split up over it.

If you want to talk about parenting then I will tell you that I think your hob nail boots approach to this is not about either of the dc but all about you and that you are using your daughter to stamp your feet about a situation that is out of your control.

I also have to wonder what exactly is being said in the emails and phone calls to make dss's mother react as she does?

The fact that you can't seem to get over not getting in your own way and play a gentle waiting game says A LOT about you and your parenting.

I am leaving this thread now because I actually find your attitude towards a terrified child selfish and cruel and I think you are being very manipulative when you dress it up as concern for your dd.

I can see exactly where Alice is coming from with protecting her DD. Having been through the court system with my own DH. The needs of all children were not considered at all. All they wanted to do was buffer out a right contact schedule without worrying about any implications.

For a period of 2 and half years my own children with DH were not allowed to have any contact with their siblings - that goes for phone contact, cards, letters anything. DH was beside himself as it felt like his whole family had to be split in two.

I took it upon myself to say to DH that unless our children had involvement with their siblings and were acknowledged as such then I would take them out of the situation completely. I couldn't and wouldn't stand there and allow my children be side lined and emotionally hurt. There was no regards from the court with how that was impacting the whole situation - they just didn't give a shit. It caused some right humg-dinging arguments and I was prepared to walk away completely if it meant my children were better off emotionally and mentally.

Try not to slam the door on the way out, there's a dear!

redhen I agree entirely! It's exactly what we did with DSD - when she reinitiated contact after two years, she had no contact with me or DD for 12 months, then she and I rebuilt our relationship and she and DD had only just begun to spend time together again when she dropped us for a second time. I know how devestated I am - one day DSD and I are planning a charity mountain climbing trip together and the next - nothing. As if we'd always been strangers.
Now, maybe I am being over protective, but if I feel hurt by that, how much worse is it for a child?

If putting my DD first makes me selfish and cruel then so be it.

I actually find your attitude towards a terrified child selfish and cruel

......the same terrified child who happily spent the weekend in my home? His Mum tells DH he's terrified - I've yet to see any evidence myself.

clover thank you for sharing your experience - it helps to hear what other people have and have not achieved through court.
It's horrific that half-siblings can be disregarded by the courts - I can understand (although do not agree) that step-siblings are of questionable importance in a DCs life, but when siblings share a parent and the court orders them to be kept apart - bonkers.

It's emotionally draining I know that much and 2 years on it still hits a nerve despite everything pretty much sorted. Only now 2 years on since being re-introduced do they feel comfortable with each other.

With the step-sibling issue I think the child should definitely be considered in all this if they were relatively close in the first place and how often they saw each other - also on how long they've been in each others lives.

Court is emotionally draining for all and it's not an experience I'd like to go through again. In fact, if I'd known beforehand how draining it all would be I'm not sure what route I'd choose to take in regards to support.

I supported DH when he initially secured the contact order years ago - we weren't living together then so it was at arms length and even then, wasn't an experience I had any expectation of repeating.

DH has ignored many breaches of the contact order - which happen approx every 6 months (by which I mean DSS missed contact without DH agreement). He ignored it in order to avoid court, and would have done the same this time - we'd just accept that DSS doesn't want to come for a while, then decides he does and we carry on as usual.

But this time, DSS mum applied for the contact order to be dismissed a matter of days after DSS said that he was "too scared" to come, and followed that up with the assertion that the best thing for DSS was for DH to have his PR removed. DH didn't start this - but now it's been escalated in this way he's decided to ensure that he does all he can to help DSS. That almost inevitably means more disruption for our family for a while - hence my desire to protect DD.

And, as DH is being incredibly supportive and agrees that DDs emotional welfare is important, there really is no need for us to consider living apart

I find it slightly odd that a 13 yr old cannot understand that it's a bit adhoc and why. Surely at 13 she has her own life and is not dependant on a 10 year old to make her happy eow. and if she is overly affected by this could you not put plans in place for when he doesn't come so she's busy anyway.

Agree with sparky that's it's a control issue of yours.

I think you have dug your feet in so to speak OP and now can't back down. What really is the problem?

I think sticking to a contact schedule religiously is a big pain in the arse.

Sticking to a contact schedule helps keep everyone organised and know where they stand, especially where 2 parents cannot communicate with each other. Ad hoc contact is fine for the person who wants it that way, but a pain in the arse for those who have to accommodate it, and live life around it. It's a hellish way to live, and in the OP's situation, I don't blame her or her DH to not want to live their lives wondering when they'll next see DSS and whether there'll be tension & recriminations due to either having to say no because they made plans, or disappoint others because the last minute contact has scuppered already agreed plans.

As for putting plans in place in case DSS doesn't turn up - the OP's DD would know her needs/wants were coming 2nd to the whims of another child, because you either make plans and follow through no matter what happens (disappointing DSS in the process) or you have to cancel to accommodate DSS causing resentment in DD.

It's a lose-lose situation and dismissing the OP's concerns over her own DD and how she'll be affected by this is by accusing her of being controlling is a bit much IMO.

It's not the adhoc nature of the contact per se - she's already used to that as it's always happened and has accepted our explainations. It's the last minute let downs and lack of explainations that are most impactive and are more likely to happen now the situation has been escalated.

For instance, DH leave the house to to pick DSS up -and comes back without him. Or DSS comes for the weekend but then leaves early and unexpectedly.

DSS and DD plan to finish a game/project "next time" - but next time becomes weeks or months later because DSS decided not to come. And when DSS does come again, DD isn't interested in playing that game anymore, and DSS is upset beause she blanks him about it?

Why should she "learn to live with disappointment"? Rather than expose her to regular, unexpected changes to plans, why shouldn't I protect her from that until the situation stabilises and DSS has established a secure, stable, close relationship with his Dad?

Well it's a different situation but my SIL had a boyfriend who my dc adored then they split up and they didn't see him for 2 years. They were devastated. Then SIL and this guy got back together and he expected to just pick up where he left off. I refused to let this happen as I couldn't put them through the heartache again. It caused a big row at the time but I'm glad I stuck to my guns because they split up again a year later and he hasn't been seen since.
Sometimes as mothers we have to protect our dc from hurt and rejection - it's not all about the step children you know!!!