Will I be living my life like this?

[AliceinWonderhell]

DSS (10) has explained what he, and his Mum, would like the court to put in place once his Mums application to have the contact order amended is heard.

He'd like regular contact to be available to him, here, as a member of our family - preferably for 1 week in every 3. But, he doesn't want to have to come every time, because something might happen (between his mum and dad) between visits that results in him being scared to come - so he wants to be able to decide whether or not he's coming "at the time". He also wants to be able to cut visits short if something happens while he's with us that he doesn't like - but he knows he can only do that if his mum isn't at work.

He wants me to explain this to my DD (13), so that she understands and doesn't get upset with him when he doesn't come and spend time with us at the last minute - because he doesn't think it's fair that I've decided that DD will never be here when he is.

He was very clear and articulate when he explained it, and presented it as what 'we' want, meaning him and his Mum. The concept that DH might not agree hadn't occurred to him and he said that the court will 'make' DH do what they say.

Sadly that sounds like he is being manipulated by his mum. And hopefully a court would recognize that and not grant 'his' wishes.

colour what DH expects to happen is that the contact order will be discharged in favour of a 'recital' which sets out contact subject to DSS specific wishes.

Then, of course, if DH refuses to accomodate DSS wanting contact at the last minute, it'll be DH that comes across as unreasonable.

I've got an awful feeling that for the next 6/8 years, I'm never going to know if DSS will be spending the week with us or not - and my life with DH will be very much dictated by DSS and his Mum.

Oh dear.

I can see why, to a ten year old, that seems like a reasonable request.

But ten year olds aren't capable of understanding the effects such an arrangement would be on the other people - adults and children - involved. Emotional, practical...what a nightmare it would be to never know what was happening from one week to the next. How could you plan outings, visits to family, holidays, parties...even meals and shopping. Aside from the emotional roller coaster issues.

For that reason I'd hope the court wouldn't automatically legalise such a request, but I know nothing about whether that would be the case in reality.

What does he mean about something happening between his mum and dad that would make him scared?

river his parents rarely agree on anything - and DSS has overheard/been involved in calls and conversations between DH and his ex about DSD/money/schooling etc.
He's seen her letting of steam by screaming into a pillow/punching the bed after she's read emails from DH too.
He's naturally protective of his mum and if mums upset, he concludes its Dads fault.
He's even said that he believes that DH disagrees with his mum just to make her life difficult.
Contact between DSS and his Dad seems to have become conditional on DH doing what DSS Mum is happy with.

Riverboat - excellent post.

That all sounds bonkers. Sorry. I hope the court sees sense but I'm not optimistic tbh. The bit that bothers me, other than the effect this'll have on your DH's relationship with his DS, is the 'you explain to DD' that this bonkers set up isn't really bonkers and don't block 'our' attempts to set up this bonkers set up by suggesting its upsetting to your DD. If a 10 yr old is able to articulate what he wants and why, in a very adult way, then I think it's only right that you explain the consequences for others affected by this decision. He's not living in a vacuum, he can't dictate how other people should deal with this just because it doesn't suit him his mum.

I think the possibility of your DH saying no, when you have already made plans, is something that needs to be spelled out to your DSS. I've lived that life, not being able to make plans in case my ex decided he wanted to see DD. I sacrificed my life to accommodate someone else's selfishness in refusing to commit to a regular pattern, and it's a bloody miserable existence. Suffice to say it doesn't happen anymore. This might be coming out of the mouth of a 10 yr old, but it's the same effect on your DH/you/your DD.

Although it's a difficult decision to make, I think I'd be looking for your DH to agree that he can give your DSS warning/notice ahead of free time or weekends where you have specific plans, to give you the chance to accommodate DSS, and after a given deadline, he knows the answer will be no. Ad hoc contact is fine when it suits all involved. When it doesn't, the fairest thing is to have some conditions in place to accommodate flexibility, but also have respect for others involved. If your DSS doesn't want to commit to regular structured contact, that's absolutely fine, as long as he understands last minute contact might not always be possible.

Bonkers indeed and unworkable in practice I should think. You can't have that sort of flexibility all one way.

Surely a court wouldn't endorse an arrangement that means an entire household has to indulge the whims of a 10 yr old? Do they look at the bigger picture?

petal They didn't when they put the recital in place for DSD.

On the basis of a 20 min conversation between CAFCASS and DH before the initial hearing, and the 30 min 'wishes and feelings' interview with the DCs, the court ordered that DSC mum must make DSD available for contact "subject to DSD specific wishes" - in other words, she didn't have to come if she didn't want to. We had several weekends where she told DH during the day that she would be coming only to change her mind when DH arrived on the doorstep. Or, call her mum and walk out halfway through a weekend. She was only a year or two older than DSS is now at the time that was put in place. So I think it's quite possible they'll do the same for DSS.

Hence my determination not to allow DD to spend any time with the DSC from now on. Fortunately, DH is supportive and agrees that DDs emotional well being should be accommodated.

How would this work in practice? Would you be legally obliged to cancel a weekend away visiting family, if DSS suddenly decides he wants to come over? Is it as black and white as that, or does any common sense apply?

I thought orders were made on the basis that a father is not obliged to have access as per the order, however the mother obliged to relinquish the children to the father, as per the order, if requested to do so?

Sounds a nightmare to run in practice - no one would know where they stood one day to the next.

Could you maybe agree to it as a trial for, say, a six week period - ie during his first two full weeks with you he can go back to his mum's if he struggles, but make it clear that after that it needs to be an agreed rota so that everyone knows where they stand? Might just help him get his confidence up.

What he seems to be saying is that he wants proper contact, but he's remembering some times in the past when he's wanted to go back to his mum's (for some reason) and is feeling nervous that he might feel like that another time. So giving him a little time to overcome his fears could help a little.

His mother realises that practicalities need to come before his whims on her end (because she can't have him when she's working) but needs to be made to appreciate that your family also needs some sense of control over who'll be there when. If a child is with you, you arrange babysitters, childcare, plan meals for them, arrange play dates, etc, etc. You can't just drop all that at no notice.

On the plus side, maybe a week at a time with a 2 week gap would mean less chopping and changing so could be easier for him.

The three week routine he/mum wants isn't an option - my DD has an EOWeek arrangement and if DSS comes every three weeks, they'd overlap. I'm not budging on that one - If DH agrees an arrangement that brings DSS here when DD is, she and I will move out.

purple you've hit the nail on the head there - when DH was talking to his ex last week, he asked what happens when DSS says that he doesnt want to go to Grandmas for the night. She replied that DSS knows that he has to go because she is working. It's clear that neither DSS or his Mum consider the contact with DH to be important and it's always going to be optional.

Alice - totally non-accusatory, just wondering why you definitely don't want DD and DSS to ever be together? Has she been upset by him before?

This really annoys me. Kids need stability and routine, it's well documented that this is how kids thrive.

So why oh why do courts insist on allowing this. The children shouldn't have this responsibility, it's too much for a ten year old, and won't be helping him the long term.

The trouble is that the courts and cafcass etc are only involved for a short while, they don't really see family life, the dynamics and how it all works.

I have been reading your threads. Do you really want to live like this? Is it really a life for any of you? What is going to happen if your DSS wants you come at an unscheduled time? you would either have to say no to keep him away from your dd or say yes and have to ship your dd off. Either way, it forces you to be the bad guy, either your dd and her dad will think she comes second to your DH and DSS, or your dh and dss will think he is not wanted and you become the wicked step mum. What if something happened to his mum and he had to come full time?

Its like you are living with a ticking bomb, there is no way i would live like this or want my children to live like this. You are basically waiting for things to implode, if you really see your self and dh going the distance I think you would be better finding separate homes and spending lots of time together until the children are much older and they can determine their own contact.

river My DD was devastated when DSD started doing what DSS is doing now; opting in and out of contact, changing her mind, expecting DD to be her BFF when she wanted it.

I'm not prepared to put DD through that again. It's not fair that she never knows who is going to be here when she arrives, who she'll be sharing a bathroom with, who will be at breakfast. Eventually, she put DSD firmly in her place and won't have anything to do with her now. DSD is older than DD and so probably wasn't too bothered that DD responded to her text with 'piss off' (DSD twitter feed is much worse) I don't think DSS is robust enough to deal with DD rejecting him when he decides he wants to be friends again though - even if it is a natural consequence of his behaviour.

Not only that, if DSS continues to feel 'scared' about being here then it won't be long before DD gets dragged into that. DDs dad and I have agreed that while we don't think for one moment that my DH is anything other than a fabulous stepdad, until we get to the bottom if why he is sometimes a scary Dad, it's better that DD and DSS aren't in contact.

lunar if I move out, DH will lose the house. He probsbly won't be able to have DSS overnight at all then.

But yes, we do talk about living separately, a lot.

And if something happened to DSS mum and he had to be here full time then he wouldn't have somewhere else to opt out of so he couldn't hurt DD the way he does now.
And, DH and I could include DSS in our family therapy.

Why not suggest a 5 day stint every two weeks, that doesn't overlap with your DD?

But make it clear that he can only change his mind and go home the first couple of times, and once he's settled into it it will be fixed in people's calendars and there won't be any chopping and changing unless his parents both agree for some special reason. I could live with that. I couldn't live with never knowing from one day to the next whether he'll be there. But a short trial period might just build his confidence up a bit. It's a shame your DH hasn't managed to get to the bottom of what's been bothering him.

And his mum can't really say that it's OK for DSS to be forced to go to his dad's at times when she's working but not a other times. A court would see that that wasn't reasonable.

purple his mum won't agree to that. She's prepared to always give him the option.

If he says he doesn't want to see DH, he goes to his grandmas if his mum is working.

Alice what has your DP said about this latest request from DSS?

allnew In terms of DH opinion, he's at a loss because he knows there's a good chance the court will put it in place and he'll have to be the bad guy if he refuses.

In terms of what he's said to DSS about it, the weird thing is that DSS isn't expecting it to happen! DSS knows that he's going to be asked by CAFCASS what he'd like to happen and so this is what he's come up with but he really doesn't seem bothered one way or another! So DH has listened to DSS, but hasn't really responded one way or another because DSS isn't asking for it to happen. It siunds harsh but DSS really gives the impression thatvhe doesnt care whether he sees his Dad or not. It's all very odd.

There was a small glimmer of understanding this weekend - DSS admitted that one of the reasons that he has been refusing to come is because a few weeks ago he confessed to us that he's been searching for 'naughty words' on his iPad despite his Mum telling him if he did it again she'd confiscate his iPad permanently. At the time, DH chatted to him about Internet safety and agreed with him that they'd sit down together and put parental controls on the iPad the next time DSS came. But DSS refused to come again and has been worried about his Mum finding out ever since.

This is a repeat of the situation that led to DSD refusing contact - she graffitied on furniture in our home and DH put consequences in place that she avoided by not coming again.

All the while their Mums position is 'you don't have to go if you don't want to', then DH feels that he will be unable to deal with any issues the DCs bring to him and he'll have to pass the issue for their mum to deal with.

For some reason I have it in my head that his wishes would only be granted from age 12