Will I be living my life like this?

[AliceinWonderhell]

DSS (10) has explained what he, and his Mum, would like the court to put in place once his Mums application to have the contact order amended is heard.

He'd like regular contact to be available to him, here, as a member of our family - preferably for 1 week in every 3. But, he doesn't want to have to come every time, because something might happen (between his mum and dad) between visits that results in him being scared to come - so he wants to be able to decide whether or not he's coming "at the time". He also wants to be able to cut visits short if something happens while he's with us that he doesn't like - but he knows he can only do that if his mum isn't at work.

He wants me to explain this to my DD (13), so that she understands and doesn't get upset with him when he doesn't come and spend time with us at the last minute - because he doesn't think it's fair that I've decided that DD will never be here when he is.

He was very clear and articulate when he explained it, and presented it as what 'we' want, meaning him and his Mum. The concept that DH might not agree hadn't occurred to him and he said that the court will 'make' DH do what they say.

Alice, is your DH's fear of being the bad guy stopping him from making a decision on how to respond to what his DS is saying? If your DH does as I suggested up thread i.e. gives DSS advance notice of plans or weekends DSS can come (when your DD isn't there) irrespective of what DSS has said he'd prefer i.e. not commit to coming until last minute, is the prospect of saying no if DSS asks when he's either been told of plans he had a deadline to commit to, or that he can't come when your DD is there, is this stopping your DH from responding to what DSS has said? Explaining to him that what he's asking just isn't workable for the many reasons you've explained?

I understand it must be incredibly difficult trying to counter the manipulation coming from DSS' mum but I don't think fearing being the bad guy or not spelling out to DSS how unworkable it is, or what has to happen from your end i.e. take what is offered or understand you (DSS) are choosing not to come when offered/your DH isn't the bad guy, is going to help. I think the fear of losing the relationship with his DS is in effect paralysing your DH in how to respond when the reality is, his relationship is already badly damaged by the words and actions of his ex. IMO your DH needs to be reasonable but firm and consistent in explaining he wants to see DSS, these are the reasons he cannot come when your DD is there, and that last minute requests will obviously be considered but might not always be possible to agree to because of the nature of the request i.e. you will have plans on occasion that you will give him notice of but if last minute commitment is his choice then it's likely the answer will be no in those circumstances.

That's not being the bad guy even if DSS says that's the case. Broken record explanation is the response your DH needs to stick to i.e. this was your choice on how you wanted contact to occur, your were told it might not work/happen that way for x reasons, the fact that I have to say no on this occasion is due to the reasons already explained and while I would love to see you, x plans were given to you weeks/months ago with a deadline to agree and you chose not to agree. I would have no qualms whatsoever giving that sort of explanation to my 8 yr old as she understands responsibility and consequences of actions/decisions. I don't think it's beyond the understanding of your DSS even if his mum twists this into your DH being the bad guy. Clearly the wider implications of such decisions made by your DSS is beyond his understanding but he should be able to 'get' choices/responsibility/consequences. Fearing his ex's manipulation of the reality shouldn't stop your DH from making the difficult decisions that have to be made as one day, the penny will drop for your DSS. It won't if your DH fears being the bad guy and somehow tries to accommodate this bonkers set up in an attempt to 'save' the relationship.

Why do the courts, CAFCASS etc hold the needs of the child of divorce as more important than the needs of the other children involved. Are they not entitled to stability also?

Perhaps your DH ought to think about only seeing his son once every 4 weeks and not every 3? It's less contact sure, but it's regular contact, he doesn't lose his wife, his home, his son or his step daughter. Because if your husband is anything like mine he misses he ex's children a lot.

1 week in every 4 is still pretty good. My DH only see he's son EOW and they arrange to speak every Monday and Thursday evening. Maybe the ex would see it as some kind of victory to have secured reduced contact with her ex and agree to it? I've learnt that if you can make the ex think like she has 'won' some kind of weird battle in her head then life gets a bit easier. When actually the outcome suits us perfectly fine regardless. DH has on occasion even pretended that the 'solution' has actually caused us some massive upheaval in order for her to agree to it. The ex likes to cause friction between DH and I. She has no clue that there is none really, but as long as it gives her a warm fuzzy feeling inside and she agrees it's worth it.

DSS is also wavering on contact, but DH has told DSS and his mum that he will give pocket money to DSS when he visits and he won't get any backdated pocket money if DSS decides not to visit one weekend. We are not rolling in money to keep giving money to a child who doesn't want to play an active part in our family.

Stepmooster has a point. My DD sees her dad rarely, she can go weeks between contact even without any telephone calls but when she sees her dad, she enjoys her time and they are still v close. It's hard to explain but my ex has always chosen sporadic contact and while I initially baulked at it, tried everything to get him to commit to something more structured because I believed what he offered would be hurtful/damaging to DD, their relationship is strong and close still. It's not the same as it would be if he was more involved, but it's not the awful, damaging set up I feared it would be. I think fearing the loss of the relationship through lost contact is valid, but it doesn't follow that it'll be damaged beyond repair, or lost for good. I think your DH needs to have a bit more faith in himself and his role as father in your DSS life. No matter how insidious the ex's efforts are to demonise your DH, the resilience of your DH's relationship with both his DC will hold over time if he is putting their welfare before his own (the opposite if their DM) and he parents rather than panders to DSS.

tension I don't think it's fear of being the bad guy - he's been there, done that with DSD and seen that in the long term, being consistent pays off.

I think both of us are struggling with the fact that we may decide to relegate DSS to the status of visitor to our home, in order to protect the family. DSS has been a very loved member of the family and I believe he enjoys it - but some aspects of being part of our family creates conflict/anxiety for him so he wants to pick and choose which bits he has and which he avoids. I think DH and I are realising that we can't meet DSS needs and survive as a family - but sacrificing one family member to save the rest is a big decision and one that is tough on everyone.

Sadly, any contact will be resented/discouraged by the DSC mum - she is still holding the threat of removing DHs Parental Responsibility over DH (she can't actually do it but has been advised that she can).
She's never made any secret of the fact that she thinks any contact is unnecessary, so will only facilitate it if that's what the DCs want - and has said that to people involved in the DSC care (teachers/SW etc).

No matter how infrequent contact is agreed to be, it will still be dependent on DSS wanting to see his Dad and that is dependent upon whether his mum is able to tolerate it.

We had several weekends where she told DH during the day that she would be coming only to change her mind when DH arrived on the doorstep. Or, call her mum and walk out halfway through a weekend. She was only a year or two older than DSS is now at the time that was put in place. So I think it's quite possible they'll do the same for DSS.

They might. But you have clear reasons why it is unworkable - and you have another child to consider in all of this. Your DD is just as important as DSS and the court needs to be told about how this affects her as well. She needs to be protected, and if that means that DSS doesn't get to come - that will have to be how it is.

To keep the door open for DSS, you could tell the court that you are not willing to subscribe to a bizarre three weekly "i might or I might not" system, but that one weekend in four will be set aside for DSS. He, however, must arrive at yours by lunchtime on the first day, if he wants to come. Your DH should not be in the position of going to fetch him and then being turned away - that's ridiculous.

Don't tell DD he is coming - just see if he does and present it as a lovely surprise visit.

But if your DSS doesnt want to visit at the last minute (on an allotted week where DD is not there) then he has 2 options to come at the next alloted interval or suck it up and come afterall. Don't go making special allowances for him. You are recognising he may feel scared to come but keeping the door open also. If your DH worked 2 weeks on/off an oil rig what would happen then?

Alice I get what you are saying but the reality is neither you nor your DH are relegating your DSS. He's being manipulated, he's asking for an impossible set up which is placing him in direct conflict with your family set up, and as young as he is, he needs to understand that requesting the pattern of contact he has, with the caveats he has, the response/reaction to that request isn't ever going to be complete acceptance. That's not him being relegated by either of you. It's a choice he's making that has consequences he will no doubt not like. The only thing I can see that your DH can do is offer continuance of the current order or the alternative which will have to be DSS choice coupled with your response to that i.e. He only comes when your DD isn't there and there is the chance that last minute requests might not be accommodated if there is a good reason not to (especially where you have already given him notice that he's welcome x weeks before said plan so he knows the likely answer to last minute requests).

I'm not in your situation, I cannot begin to know how painful all this is for you and your DH, but from an outside perspective I cannot see that a) either of you are actively choosing to exclude DSS or relegate him at all or b) that any of this can be attributed to either if you in how you have treated your DSS. His mum sounds an absolute nightmare, and short of the courts taking drastic action against her for interfering in your DH's relationship with your DSS, then the choice you have isn't a choice at all. DSS is making a choice (well his mum is) and you simply cannot just capitulate in the way he or she wants or expects. Your life, if you stayed together, would be bloody miserable and your 'family' life would be non existent anyway. If you end up splitting up to accommodate your DSS wished then again, more misery all round except for DSS perhaps. If you maintain either the current set up still stands or your response to DSS is the only alternative, again, that's not an active choice or decision but the only logical decision you can make to maintain some sort of family life, albeit quite structured/'boxed off' to try and protect you/your DD/DSS as well (if 'things happening' scare him so much).

This isn't either of you relegating DSS or ejecting him from your family. You are dealing with a really shitty situation that requires some honest and harsh responses (from DSS perspective) but the alternative isn't pleasant or easy either.

It's such a vicious circle.

One of the things he doesn't like about being here is realising that something has changed/happened while he's been at Mums. Everything from moving a piece of furniture to a pet dying - he experiences an unpleasant feeling when he is here and discovers that is the case.
So, his solution is not to come, because "he is scared that he'll feel like that". If he doesn't come, then he won't know things have changed and won't experience that unpleasant feeling. But if he misses a visit, he knows things are more likely to have changed, so he knows its more likely that he'll experience that unpleasant feeling, so he avoids coming again.

Unless DH can reassure him, then that cycle will continue and Dh can't reassure him because phone calls are cut short, monitored or refused and postcards/letters intercepted.

Excellent post, Tension.

Alice - everything you've said about your DSS and DSD suggests to me that DSS is a very different child from your DSD was at 12, when she was given the right to decide if she could come or not. From what you said about her she woudl come across as self-assured and in some ways quite grown up. Do you not think Cafcass would view DSS's views on things quite differently, with the way he comes across?

And 10 is quite different from 12 in the sense that you can't really leave a 10 year old to make their own plans - most will still be in after school clubs, need babysitters, etc, which they might not at 12. So you couldn't reasonably be expected to arrange working hours, childcare, etc for a child who might then not come. I do think there's a big difference between a somewhat anxious and immature 10 year old boy and a rather strong-willed almost-teenage girl.

Alice, I hate to say it but that explanation of how/why he feels scared is the very reason that boy needs to see someone for counselling. If your DH achieves anything in this process, I hope it is the right to organise and insist that your DSS gets some help/support to understand and process his feelings in a way that means he can cope better with everything he is dealing with. What he has described is common for anyone worried they are 'missing out' on what is happening elsewhere. Not a huge thing in itself. Maybe his feelings are heightened because of the high conflict between his parents, but that's more reason again to get him help.

I really can't add anymore other than to hope that your DH can get the court to see through his ex's agenda and get the support he needs to help your DSS get through this, and come out the otherwise a happier boy who can see the positives in maintaining a good relationship with you all.

tension Counselling/therapy for DSS is DHs primary objective, tbh - we couldn't have afforded to apply for a specific issue order ourselves and DSS mum could have denied there was any issue, but now SHE has applied to court, DH can use the process to highlight DSs needs for emotional support using DSS mums actions/emails to support his belief that its needed.

It's more important than a contact order really; whereas a RP can breach a contact order if they have 'reasonable excuse' (such as the DC not wanting to go) there isn't the same wriggle room with a specific issue order so if the court orders therapy, that's what will have to happen. And, hopefully, therapy will lead to a more natural contact schedule that DSS is happy with.

Well good luck with it, I hope the court sees sense and orders the therapy. Hopefully that would help get things to a more settled place for all concerned.

It's such a long process though - its unlikely any order would be enforceable until the middle of next year at the earliest.

In the meantime, DSS isn't having regular contact with DH, is continuing to witness violent arguments between his mum and sister (it's the first thing he told DH this weekend) and significant decisions (medical and schooling) are being made about DSS without DH having any input.

The system isn't child-focused at all, regardless of the rhetoric.

I think not allowing your dss to see dd at all sounds like "punishment" for the flaky contact arrangements. I also think your dd is over invested in the relationship if she can't cope with her 10 year old step brother having a few issues around contact and must be banned completely from seeing him because of it.

Sparkly, if dss cant cope with issues around contact, I wonder why op's dd is expected to just put up and shut up?

I don't quite follow your logic sparkly. Do the OP's DD's feelings in the family set up not matter? She's either too sensitive/over invested in the relationship which to you shouldn't affect her so negatively so should just suck it up? Or the contact between the 2 DC matters enough to be deemed a 'punishment' if prevented in order to protect the Op's DD's feelings? Which is it?

She'll only really notice if her parents are making a big meal out of it. 13 year old girls tend to have a lot more preoccupations in their lives than the whereabouts of their ten year old step brother I am sure from the ones I know.

"Dd, you know DSB is struggling a bit atm with contact don't you? Well unfortunately this means that it's going to be a bit up and down when we see him till we get it all sorted. We want him to feel happy and comfortable about him coming don't we?"

OP what is your dd's likely response to that?

So how the flaky contact impacts and affects the OP's DD shouldn't be considered at all? Despite the fact the DD has been through this before and was badly affected by that rejection, so the OP knows her DD will notice her step brothers absence?

I also think your dd is over invested in the relationship if she can't cope with her 10 year old step brother having a few issues around contact

I agree. I made the mistake of allowing DD and DSS to grow close despite the upset DSD rejection of our family caused her.
I'll never forget my (then 10yr old) DD sobbing in my arms because DSD had decided not to come after all - she looked up to DSD and couldn't understand why she didn't want to see her.

Yet, I stupidly allowed DD to develop a natural relationship with DSS - I should have guessed this would happen really. Funnily enough, DSS mum has said more or less the same thing to DH about DD - I shouldn't have let her get find if DSS.

Don't put words into my mouth please.

I did not say she has to "suck it up". I just don't think there's that much to suck up if handled the right way.

*fond of

I think it's your emotive language that makes me think that you are passing your dramatic interpretation of this onto your dd.

If she would far rather never see him again than help him deal with his issues then she needs some counselling around how relationships work imo and you need to stop projecting your dissatisfaction with this situation onto her.