DSS is now 18 - surely things must change ......... ?

[Petal02]

So DSS has now celebrated (he didn?t have a party, he just wanted to go out for a meal with DH and I) his 18th birthday and starts back at 6th Form College (for his second year of A levels) next week. I?d like some honest opinions, especially from those of you who know the background details.

We?ve been operating flexible-ish visiting for the last few months, with some minor resistance from DSS, and on the whole it?s worked OK. DSS now works on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, just round the corner from where he lives with his mother. DH had (unsuccessfully) tried to ferry DSS to/from his workplace during his alternate weekend stays with us, but given the distances involved, it just meant DH spending Saturday and Sunday on the road, whereas if DSS had been based at his mothers, it?s literally a two minute walk. So DH has had to concede that it?s impractical to keep DSS with us beyond Saturday lunch time on access weekends.

DSS is very keen that he still has the same amount of time with his Dad, even though DH works Monday-Friday and DSS works Saturday and Sunday. Even DH had reluctantly agreed this is impractical. However as access weekends used to run from Thursday 4pm til Sunday 6pm, and now they?re shorter because they finish at lunch time on Saturday (before DSS starts his afternoon shift),DSS wants to shift his visits so that they run from Tuesday 4pm til Saturday lunch time. I understand that he?s losing two weekend days with his Dad, as he?s now working, and wants two extra week nights to compensate.

But having an ?access weekend? that starts on Tuesday (!!!!!!!) even though it finishes on Saturday lunch time, seems ridiculous for an adult. And that?s what DSS is now, he?s an adult. It surely can?t be realistic to maintain the same amount of contact hours that he had when he was 11, not when he?s working at weekends, and it?s logistically very difficult for DH to bring him over to us on a Tuesday night, because that means he needs lifts to/from college on Weds/Thurs/Fri which impacts greatly on DH?s work. Not to mention that DH and I often do stuff on weeknights. Should we stop these things because DH has an adult son?

In my opinion, things surely have to change ???. I don?t see why (although tell me if I?m wrong) DSS can?t be OK with Thursday 4pm-Sat lunch time? Yes, it?s less time with his Dad but he?s 18 now. Of course they still want to see each other, but I?m amazed that an 18 yr old wants so much rostered time with a parent. I?m also worried that DSS may cease his weekend job if he can?t maintain the same amount of contact with DH.

DH hasn't given DSS an answer on his Tuesday-Saturday request yet. I want to talk to DH about it tonight or tomorrow. But before I do, I?d like some opinions from fellow SMs. I don?t want to spend four consecutive weekend nights hanging out with DH?s adult son, just so that ? x? amount of weekly hours can be achieved. I think it?s all insane but I suspect I?m too close to the situation to see it clearly.

"That university context is where a young person starts to make a more profound transition to adulthood. But that's not happening for another year"

You don't put a timescale on transition to adulthood. Transition is be definition something that happends gradually over time. I'm sure you are not so ignorant as to think that Petal's DSS is going to wake up on the first day of uni and start think behaving and thinking as an adult? If he thinks she should be calculating access hours now, why do you think he's going to stop doing that calculation in 12 months time? He's not transitioning towards anything - in fact he's doing all he can to resist transition.

"So DH accepts then that he's not an adult till he finished A levels, if DH is paying maintenance?"

When did you get the idea that Petal's DH writes the CSA rules?

LtEveDallas thanks for deciding unilaterally that posts agreeing with you are logical and posts disagreeing aren't

No, I said "Oh thank you for proving my point - I do appreciate it"

Because you did (prove my point that no matter what Petal does or says she will be in the wrong), and I do (appreciate it)

I think the idea is when you start going to uni you learn and mature, just like every other phase of life.

Uni has certainly helped me mature a bit.

You continue maturing at university, you don't start maturing. Of course it helps, but if no maturing has been done until then then that's a real problem

Sorry - can I do a minor hijack here about maintenance?

For a child who has finished A-levels but is not 19 until later in the year should the maintenance cease when the A-levels are finished i.e. June, or the term ends in July, or when they would be due to start Uni or other further education?

And Uni doesn't 'count' as full time education with regards to maintenance, is that right?

To my knowledge it stops on 1st Sept if they're starting university

I do think that university is a big step-change in maturity, because it is a big change in the expectations put on the young person. Looking at my own 19 year old, I can see how much he has matured over the past few years, but knowing how different university is compared to home life, I can see he has got some huge changes ahead. I think he is as ready as he can be, but he still has a big learning curve ahead.

I do wonder if this boy's insistence on sticking rigidly to the prescribed number of hours of the arrangement indicates a level of insecurity - is he worried that he is being pushed out of contact with his dad? Somehow he needs to be given the confidence that he can still have enough, good quality contact with his dad even if the schedule is replaced by something more flexible - flexible contact is the 'unknown' and he is fearing it, so clinging onto the old arrangement.

Allnew - are the two parents' incomes then taken into account when calculating how much maintenance loan the student can get? And will the parents have to contribute towards the student's maintenance costs - I know we do, here in Scotland, but don't know how this applies in England or where parents are divorced.

Gosh this is confusing.

petals is it correct that DSS own DM doesn't have much time for him and is happy for him to spend as much time at your house as possible? I seem to remember you saying something like this on older threads of yours. (I am happy to be corrected).

If it is then it is not suprising that your DSS is introverted, he basically isn't wanted in either household. I know your DH wants him but it must be so obvious to your DSS that you don't. I feel incredibly sorry for him. I have DC's who are his age and even if they are quiet and self contained they still need to feel wanted and loved.

Also, why can't your DH just drop him at the local town then he can get a bus the rest of the way to college. Is this not possible? What are the distances? Can he bike from the town to your house?

He is your DH son, can't you show him a bit more compassion? You have said he is not a bad DC.

I do wonder if this boy's insistence on sticking rigidly to the prescribed number of hours of the arrangement indicates a level of insecurity - is he worried that he is being pushed out of contact with his dad?

That's what I have been saying.

First off, there is a huge divide of opinion (across MN, anyway, but I see it with my DSCs' schoolmates parents, too) about what the status of a 'young adult' is. There are some parents who think that their child should be continued to be 'done for' all the way through secondary education, and then all the way through university, and (sometimes) beyond. These are the parents who think a young person should not have to work, that young people are sufficiently challenged at school and are under enormous academic pressures, that young people need to maintain a certain standard of living in comparison to their peers and that it is the parents' job to provide that. In this model, parents feel that they remain responsible for their offspring at or approaching the same level of care and intensity until death. (I mean, we have all read some of the threads about adult children who are angry because their retired parents won't give them money towards a home, provide free childcare, etc etc etc.) These are the people who believe (and some of these ideas have already been expressed on this thread) that young people should be fully financially supported by their parents throughout their choice of education, that young people should not have to use public transportation , that it is the job of parents to facilitate whatever decisions and choices young people make regarding their social lives, jobs, or education, and that young people should generally not be "expected" to take on increased responsibilities within or outside the home as they get older.

These parents are convinced that this is the way "loving parents" behave. You won't convince them otherwise, and any advice or criticism they offer is going to come from that framework.

Add to all that righteousness the 'stepmother issue' and you've got a pretty entrenched mindset which will never accept that Petal (or anyone else in a similar position) has a legitimate problem and complaint here.

Petal, hang in there.

Some students go to university from home in much the same manner as school and nothing really changes

NADM, if it truly is "quality" rather than "quantity", then surely the advice given would be for children to do activities, see friends, attend parties rather than maintain current contact arrangements, yet it isn't.

From whom is the advise that contact with a NRP should take greater priority than activities, parties and friends?

As someone who has engaged with a ridiculous number of professional support services for separated parents and step-parents, I have never been given this advice.
The advice is to involve both parents in the day-to-day lives of DC's and not use extra-curricular activities as either an excuse for contact not to take place, or withheld as a stick to beat the reputation of the NRP with.

The whole argument here seems to be that at 18 the DSS should be behaving in a differnt way, changing his mindset on time with his dad, and showing the foresight to understand how life evolves as you mature when making decisions - like taking a job at the weekend etc. The problem, as it appears to me, is that the DSS is a product of the upbringing he's had from both his parents, who appear to have lived their life, and organised DSS's, according to the all important 'rota'. That's the message he's had for years, so I'm not actually surprised that the DSS's reaction to losing time with his dad should be made up, according to another 'rota' as that's how he's lived his life for years. And responsibility for that situation has to lie with the OP's DP and the ex wife. Maybe if the OP's DP had been more pro-active in anticipating that the DSS would feel a bit lost without his 'rota' and gone out of his way to give him the tools to adapt to the changes he is currently dealing with, then petal wouldn't be feeling the frustrations she does. Instead of waiting for DSS to apply for his provisional licence, why does the dad here not say, 'right, lets go out and get you some practice behind the wheel' so the DSS gets a taste of driving, he can gain from that experience - more practise will help him gain confidence, help him learn to drive, and give him the push to actually get his provisional licence/lessons/car/independence to come and go as petal seems to want him to.

There were known consequences when the DSS got a weekend job - why didn't the DSS's parents actually think about how that would change things, and actually sit down with the DSS to talk about what the expectations would be on DSS on how this would change their time together. Just hoping that he'll slink off with his friends/hobbies/interests if they weren't there before isn't really doing anyone any good is it? If' DSS has been mollycoddled to the extent he is incapable to making an independent decision, suddenly expecting the event of an 18th birthday to change all that, is unreasonable IMO. He clearly needs guidance on how to move on, mature, and understand the consequences of decisions he makes i.e. take a weekend job etc. DSS clearly has an expectation that his dad will adjust his life to accomodate their time together, and if he's been given no indication from his dad that this wouldn't happen, is he so wrong to think that? There is fault on all sides here, but I think putting responsibility for the situation on the shoulders of what seems to be a 'young' 18 yr old lacking the skills to think for himself because of the upbringing he's had, is harsh IMO.

SDT sorry cross-posted. Only the income of the resident family is taken into account for student loan purposes.

Well I guess I have a real problem (TBF, I have serious MH issues and a disease that prevented me from socialising properly in high school, but I don't like to think I have a problem...Anyway OT! ) Uni really helped me learn about The Big Bad World in a gentle way that has provoked me to do -and enjoy!- adult things I never would have dreamed of before.

All I meant was going to uni will most likely help him relax and socialise. It really is a young adult environment, IME.

I do hope he...I don't know what terminology to use, but he doesn't seem happy. :(

Petal - I know I've come to this thread late, but I've followed the trials and tribulations of your DSS for a couple of years now (PM me if you want to know my old NN).

By the time my DSD was 18 we hardly saw her as she was out living her life, but she came to visit us when she wanted and we were happy to have her. Thats really how it should be with an 18yo as school or not they are adults.

Sorry to hear this is still going on.

Has your DH or DSS actually stopped to think what will happen when he goes to uni. If he goes local, will he still insist on this rigid pattern rather than engage with other young adults.

I know this isn't about you preventing your DSS from seeing his dad, but more frustration that an adult still wants to stick to a rigid access pattern regardless of what difficulties it may cause him and the people around him. I think its a real shame that he's not getting out there and spreading his wings like he should be at 18.

brdgrl - OMG - totally off topic, but you have just summarised why my marriage failed!

My ex is from a family who apply that model - whereas I am from very different stock, which my ex considered to be neglect - and it eventually led to such entrenched differences that it was inevitable that we would part company eventually.

I'd be interested to read any research into the outcomes for children raised in the two different models

Allnew - are the two parents' incomes then taken into account when calculating how much maintenance loan the student can get? And will the parents have to contribute towards the student's maintenance costs - I know we do, here in Scotland, but don't know how this applies in England or where parents are divorced.

Parents never have to contribute towards maintenance costs (unless, I presume, that was part of a divorce agreement, on an individual basis - but it is not mandatory for parents to support their children in uni). This is a choice for parents to make.

As I said earlier, there is no assistance generally available to families who decide to continue to support a young adult in higher eduucation - there is support available for the students themselves, presumably because the government recognises that they are 'adults' and the default position should no longer be that their parents are caring for them.

To answer the first part of your question - only one household income is taken into account; the determination is made based on criteria like where the child is 'normally' resident and things like who claims benefits...they make a call and it can be appealed if there is a good reason, but yeah - one household income is used to determine eligibility and amount of grant (and household income includes that of stepparents and parents' partners).

sorry, i cross-posted and you'd already been answered!

I'd be interested to read any research into the outcomes for children raised in the two different models
me too!

Thank you for answering, allnew and brdgrl.

Can you imagine if the DSS were to write a AIBU thread.........

Do you think that maybe in the back of his head, knowing that his mother will be furiously tapping away at her calculator if he starts to spend more time there (what a cow for being like that, anyway!), he is wanting to keep the same level of contact so as not to burden you and your DP any further financially?

Teens and young adults minds work in mysterious ways, this could easily be a protective reaction by your DSS as he knows only too well what his mother is like. (She sounds very mercenary to me)

I would think that that may well be bothering him, that his mum might expect more maintenance from his dad if he starts spending more time there.

You must be doing something right, if he would rather spend the majority of his free time with you and his dad, or even at your empty house while no one is there, so A) Take that as a compliment, and B) Try to understand there may be complex issues going on in his head wrt how his mother is.

I don't understand the mum/maintenance issue with regard to his mum 'not wanting' him with her and making him go to his dads?

Surely the more time he spends with his dad the less money mum is due?

Its also funny that mum is accused of 'not wanting' him and palming him off because she has stuck to the contact schedule when in any other conversation she would just be a mum that isnt a contact blocker?