DSC going to Sunday School & thier mother objecting.

[Threelittlemonkeys]

Hi all, pretty new here but it seems there are many veteran step mums here who have been through all what we are going through before, so hopefully someone will know the answer to my question.

DSC live with us and DP half the time. I take my DD to Sunday school and she loves it, although I am not religious myself. DSC would like to go, they can have a good time alongside their step sibling, make new friends and join in lots of other activities run by the church too such as half term fun days.

Their mother has said she doesn't consent. Well she said much more than that but it all amounted to her saying no way. DP wants them to go. She says he can't make decisions regarding religion without her. He is not deciding their religion (he is also non religious) and is not having them baptised or anything. It's just a Sunday school. Daft thing is that one DSC already goes to a church Pre school but she obviously isn't bothered by that or hasn't realised. However she has moaned at DSC for saying a cute little "grace" and dinner time that DSC learnt there.

Anyway. What do you think? DP never tries to interfer in what she does with DSC time with her and feels she is being way over the top about this. However, he doesn't want to do something a court will see as wrong. Things are currently very difficult and have been for some time, he is very aware that their agreement (which was made out of court) may be taken to court in a full blown residency battle at any time and he doesn't want to give er anything she can use to "score points" against him. That's sounds childish but hopefully you get my point.

Opinions/advice welcome.

The mother in this case is not "the birth/bio mum" she is their mum - she doesn't need to be referred to as anything else. It's really quite rude to refer to (the majority of) mothers as BM, it may be appropriate in your case Smurfy but not when responding to the OP.

Rant aside, I can see where the mother is coming from and I agree with her. Sunday School is different to church pre-school and Scouts/Guides because the sole purpose of Sunday School is to instruct children in how to worship within that particular denomination. As a PP said, how would your DP feel if his XP got together with a new partner who took the DSSs to (for example) Koran classes? Just because you and your DP are, like a lot of people, culturally Christian and don't see the harm in it doesn't mean other people are wrong by not feeling the same.

I think you need to let this one go. Your DP is not religious, his XP feels strongly about this and I don't think it's an issue worth risking further angst over. Save that for the issues your DP feels strongly about.

monkeys Does your DP check everything that he decides to do for the DCs with his ex? Do they live with him 50% of the time on her terms alone?

I can't help feeling that this issue could have been avoided by your DP fulfilling his role as an equal parent by making the decision himself as to whether the DCs can attend something they have asked to do while in his care - rather than deferring to his ex.
If she subsequently had an issue with it then she could choose to let it go, discuss it with him or take legal steps to prevent it - but it's your DPs actions that have caused a problem now, when it may well have been a non-issue.

The fact that the children have asked to go is no reason for taking them.

This is religious instruction. It's not brownies or playgroup, it is instructing children in religion.

It's pretty irresponsible (and weird) IMO to treat a class like that as a bit of a diversion on weekend morning.

The children do not understand what they are asking to attend. Their views on this are irrelevant.

Their parents need to decide on this together.

Being a "equal parent" is completely different from being a 50% parent who thinks that they can just do whatever the fuck they choose during "their time".

Why on earth two non- religious people would have their children regularly instructed in a faith they are not part of, and don't fully understand is beyond me.

Why go to a Sunday school if you aren't religious? Makes no sense to me. I hope the child's father is doing some thinking about it and not leaving things down to you. Because, as others have pointed out, it's noen of your business.

I can see that if the ex is an atheist, then grace before meals is annoying. Particularly, if she knows that the father doesn't believe in it either.

If you want your stepdaughter and own daughter to do an activity together, there are plenty around.

If your DP and you are non religious why would you try to push religious teaching on a child? And why would you want to do that against the express wishes of the childs mother?
It seems like causing trouble for no reason to me.

athing more and more 50:50 arrangements operate a parallel parenting model - its not always possible for parents to decide together - and unless they seek a court decision every time they disagree, it's often easier not to interfere with decisions unless the DCs are in danger or at risk - neither of which is true in this case.

If the DCs dad decides to allow them to go to Sunday school, it is not inevitable that they will choose that religion when they are older (as far as I know, Sunday Schools do not brainwash DCs) - they can still decide for themselves as they get older, based on their experiences in both homes as well as organised groups and schools.

Well how about these two non-religious parents try parenting their children properly and making a joint decision on whether their non-religious children need to be given weekly religious instruction?

"Parallel" parenting should presumably only be used as a last resort where a functioning relationship has completely broken down.

Making unilateral decisions out of an unwillingness to consult and calling that "parallel parenting" is just lazy and passive aggressive.

Allowing children to receive regular religious instruction without any parental support is bizarre and irresponsible.

It's a total dereliction of parental duty to allow small children to receive this kind of instruction without any oversight and then claim they can "make up their own minds" when they are older.

Parents are supposed to be involved in shaping the mind that will eventually be made up. Not snoozing in bed while their girlfriend brings the kids to be taught stuff nobody in their family believes or can provide any useful context for.

Smurfy I don't think you sound "fucking awful". Thanks for your opinion.

Athinginyourlife Err would it be a problem if DP did have a lie? What a funny thing to say! Would that make him a bad parent then? Currently when I take DD he might have a lie in or do something with the DSC or make us all a nice lunch, go to work or something else. I guess if DSC came with us he might do one of those things or maybe he would take the children and I might have a lie in. It's absoultely beside the point though... (added) Oh I see you made two posts about DP "snoozing in bed" I really don't get that!

Judd I sit in the Sunday school class and watch. It's right by our house so we just do a 2 min walk and we are there.

Notadisneymum DP didn't ask her. The DSC mentioned it to her during one if their visits with her and she "spoke" to DP about it. We hadn't actually spoken about it ourselves or with DSC and DP hadn't mentioned it to her either.

They don't communicate about anything to do with the children, except in very rare circumstances such as DP informing her when DSC have had vaccinations etc. They both make their own decisions about the DSC during the time they are with them. (I don't agree with this by the way) but they've found it impossible to do it any other way.

To everyone else, thanks for input. I am not trying to push anything, or interfer or be a brainwashing religious nutcase SM! :)

I'm not a step mum but I do have 50/50 care of my dc with my exH so am coming at this from a mothers non religious point of view.

My exH isn't religious either but his mother is quite important in the community and attends church on a Sunday because of this. ExH goes with her and takes the dc if he has them, they go to the Sunday school during the service. They also go to Cubs and sometimes have to go to Church on a Sunday through this.

I don't like it to be honest, he knows my views. I dislike any organised religion and wouldn't take them myself. But, he is equally entitled to make decisions and choices for his children as I am and unless it was affecting their health I wouldn't undermine him or over rule him. I wouldn't take kindly to him dictating how I spend my time with our dc. When dc have come home and mentioned Churchy things I nod and smile and show an interest but if they ask questions I answer them honestly - usually along the lines of "well some people choose to believe" or "Christians believe xxxx, Hindus believe xxxx etx" so they are aware that there are other religions, other points of view and that they don't have to unquestioningly believe what they hear from Church. ExH is responsible for taking them to and from Cubs, even on my days with dc and pays all the fees.

The dc enjoy Sunday school and Cubs and enjoy the activities, have made friends etc so I do see the benefits. Plus it's something they do as a family which is also good.

OP: Just as a general rule, a man who has a really awful relationship with his XP may not be the best choice of partner. Yours is already coming across as lazy, arrogant and entitled - won't consult with DSC's mother on anything unless he absolutely has to, and yet allows most of the actual childcare to default to you.

Well I'm hoping DSC mum won't object to cubs too as DSC is really looking forward to getting a space alongside his school friends at the local group- although the waiting list it as long as your arm!

He will however, If he does go, only be going every other Thursday as his mum will not take him or allow DP to take him to any events or activities we have organised, whatever that may be.

Solid... The terrible relationship with the xp mayn't be OP partners fault. Maybe both parents are equally to blame or maybe only on eparents makes the relationship/communication impossible.

I must of missed something, what makes him look lazy, arrogant and entitled? What indicates OP does most of the childcare?

OP in your opinion is your partner lazy, arrogant and entitled? And do you do the most childcare?

Lol & smurfy reporting someone who didnt like her post. Grow up! Your post WAS awful! Where the hell in the OP did she make reference to the BM ( I hate that term) 'twisting and turning things'? Where is the evidence for such a statement. I get that it is very hard to be objective when you've had to live through painful experiences, but really, what you posted was not helpful to the OP.

Back to OP. I think you have been very gracious in this thread because as you rightly put it...you came here to garner opinion and you are accepting those opinions, and you come across as a reasonable person. I hope it all works out.

NADM- i think you usually give fab advice, but I disagree with you on this. This isn't the time for the DP to establish himself as the equal parent. I know as a parent you have suffered being sidelined and think that similarly you would be hurt if your own child was suddenly receiving religious instruction at the behest of her SM.

Given the purpose of Sunday school is religious instruction, I think that it isn't right for you to even consider taking your DSC against their mothers wishes. It is quite simply not your decision. If my ex did this I would be livid. And teaching children to say 'grace' isn't appropriate in a non religious household. You wouldn't expect your children to be taught to thank the fairies for their dinner, would you

solidgoldbrass Actually I believe DP had a good relationship with Ex -they have a shit relationship now they've separated.

I don't do his "childcare"- unsure where you got that from about a post regarding 1 hour at Sunday school every other Sunday. He is also certainly not arrogant or entitled.

Pingu thanks, you're right, I didn't call their mum "birth mum" not at all. :)

Elastamum Didnt teach them to say grace- Pre school did! The preschool that's in a church, that their mum chose! Beside the point now though.

Thanks for all your opinions.

Excellent post by Smurfy1 at 07:11. The attacks that come afterwards seem unnecessary. Trouble is of course, step parenting decisions (well, lets be honest, most situations that we are asked for our opinions on) are always made in the context of your own experience, and, (with step parenting especially) there are a lot of posters on here who have had to put up with appalling behaviour from their ex- partners, which tends to make them assume all step parenting situations arte the same as their own. In that context, it is difficult to get a fair and balanced "reasonable" series of posts without the (understandable) bitterness coming through.
Excellent posts by notaDisneyMum too. It's a lovely idea that the 2 parents can agree on every decision, but I think it pretty unlikely this is ever going to happen with separated parents, as, if they were so compatible, you wonder why they separated.
Well said MammytoMany . Some massive jumps there by SGB.
3LittleMonkeys, you've been amazing patient and gracious throughout this thread, despite some rather .. er.. forceful opinions. It's nice to see some poele on MN can take part in a discussion without aggression Good luck to you, whatever your family decides to do.

Aw thanks backforgood, what a lovely way to end the thread.

Amen. (joking) :)

pingu I didn't read this as a SM led decision - but in any event, it's only an issue because the parents are unable to co-operate, so the OPs DP has two choices - concede to his ex's wishes, or do what he believes is right for his DCs when they are in his care.

Monkeys

I think in this circumstance, the mums strong feelings against a sunday school mean that your DPs not bothered feelings should give way. If your DP was deeply religious that would be different.

However I suspect the reason she feels happy for them to go to pre-school rather than the sunday school is because the pre-school is activies with a bit of church, whereas sunday school is likely to be alot of church with activites built around it.

e.g my DSs go to a RC school. At the school, although they say Grace at meals, and prayers, and have mass once a week, the religious aspect isnt focused on for a lot of the time. This means that some on the non-catholic families at the school are OK with it.

At their Sunday school it is the religion that is focused on. I.e. they will pick a passage from the Bible and discuss and do activites specifically AROUND the religion. This means that the non-catholic families at the school dont send their kids.

3Little Monkeys "Amen."

I think the best thing to do is get some mediation.

I do actually think the parents here should be willing to listen to one anothers opinion However I dont think the mother has the right to blanket say no sunday school whilst sending their child to a Church preschool. This is not a case of the mother saying " I am against religious education and I wish this supported"

Having said that I think the PARENTS of this child need to work something out they both feel comfortable with. Actually co parent here. Its shitty and hard but thats how life is when you are learning to do so as seperated parents.

so OP I would suggest that they book some mediation and have a talk over these issues. (What will happen later when say mum wants a church school and dad doesnt or visa versa this can be dealt with in mediation)

In the mean time tell your dss that Sunday school has a waiting list and dont blame either parent.

Just to update you all, DP an I had a long chat last night (about many things- see my new thread asking for more help too) including his. He had a text from EX yesterday saying again she will not consent to DSC attending Sunday school near our house with me and DD else she will apply for a PSO. He replied Ok, we can't deal with any more stress and grief from her, there's no point fighting this, pick your battles and all. She replied that's good, oh and if they do go to a Sunday school it will be one she picks not one that he picks and that 3littlemonkeys dd goes to. (head bang wall).