DSC going to Sunday School & thier mother objecting.

[Threelittlemonkeys]

Hi all, pretty new here but it seems there are many veteran step mums here who have been through all what we are going through before, so hopefully someone will know the answer to my question.

DSC live with us and DP half the time. I take my DD to Sunday school and she loves it, although I am not religious myself. DSC would like to go, they can have a good time alongside their step sibling, make new friends and join in lots of other activities run by the church too such as half term fun days.

Their mother has said she doesn't consent. Well she said much more than that but it all amounted to her saying no way. DP wants them to go. She says he can't make decisions regarding religion without her. He is not deciding their religion (he is also non religious) and is not having them baptised or anything. It's just a Sunday school. Daft thing is that one DSC already goes to a church Pre school but she obviously isn't bothered by that or hasn't realised. However she has moaned at DSC for saying a cute little "grace" and dinner time that DSC learnt there.

Anyway. What do you think? DP never tries to interfer in what she does with DSC time with her and feels she is being way over the top about this. However, he doesn't want to do something a court will see as wrong. Things are currently very difficult and have been for some time, he is very aware that their agreement (which was made out of court) may be taken to court in a full blown residency battle at any time and he doesn't want to give er anything she can use to "score points" against him. That's sounds childish but hopefully you get my point.

Opinions/advice welcome.

It sounds like they need to discuss it to reach a compromise. It seems a bit daft to insist he goes though if neither of you are religious. Can't you find another activity?

DSC is the one who wants to go and in the end it's what the child wants that matters!
I say this now but I can see my DP and I having many similar issues regarding DSSs in the future and his ex probably won't have the same POV as me.
I ionestly think some women see things line this as a territory thing, her child going to Sunday School with your child is effectively you pissing on her territory. How anyone can object to their child choosing their own beliefs and being respectful (saying grace is cute!) is beyond me. Sounds like she's being unreasonable.

I have no idea about the legal elements of this. This is just my opinion based on what I think is right!

I think that the mother here has a strong objection to her child participating in the religious practice. You say that DH is not religious himself, so his desire for the children to participate would seem to me to be outweighed by her wishes for them not to do so.

I'm sorry, but I think it would be wrong for your DH to press this point. Surely you can find alternate activities that won't contribute to the clear bad feeling - and think how confusing and painful for the children. Let it go.

But it doesn't MATTER if the DSC's mother has the same POV as you. What matters is whether her and your DP can come to an agreement. Your input is unnecessary, it's not your child.

This is a matter for the PARENTS of the child to discuss.

I would have SERIOUS objections to my children participating in ANY church led activity until they were of older Secondary age, and able to hold a reasoned discussion on religion first.

If this was done against my wishes, I WOULD be taking it to court.

I do not believe that anyone under the age of around 14 can make a balanced decision on their beliefs in this way, with full understanding, and I would not want religion foisted on younger children.

I'm with the mother.

Listen to couthy and brd.

Religion is a decision for the parents to make. It's not for step-parents to interfere. You can try to downplay it all you like, but actually Sunday School is there to teach children religion.

(I'd be perfectly happy for my ds to go to Sunday School but that's my decision, your step-children's Mother has every right to make herdecision for her children especially when their Father is not religious either.)

Thanks for advice.

COWTHYMOW and EDAM I am not having "input" as such, other than asking on here to get advice from others, I am not and would not interfere in real life. I am not saying it's a decision for me and her to make, not at all and I can't see where you got that from.

I do think she is making such a deal out of it because (as AndieMatrix says) it is seen as me "pissing on her territory" she knows my DD goes and usually tries to object to DSC doing anything alongside me me DD, often to their detriment unfortunately.

I will continue to take DD as I think it's nice for her to learn about religion. Will show DP all your replies for him to decide whether DSC will be coming with us or not.

I know from your point of view you are only trying to be helpful BUT you do have to be ultra-careful, being a step-parent, not to tread on anyone's toes. How would you feel if (God forbid) you and dp split up, he went on to a new relationship, and some other woman started taking your child to a mosque for Koranic instruction every week?

(I speak as a former step-dd, btw - former because my father and step-mother eventually divorced.)

Brd and couthy are right. Sorry, it may seem harsh to you but essentially, neither parents are religious and sought no religious instruction for their children until now. From the mothers pov- you've come along and her wishes for her children are being challenged, when (on this issue at least) her and your dp rubbed along ok. In a nutshell, the whole issue of Sunday school has only become an issue because of you. Personally i would be livid.

I appreciate all your comments. I am absolutely not stepping on her toes and am always ultra careful not to as it would cause even more problems then they always have. I never get involved with discussions between her and DP.

This is something DSC have asked to go to alongside my dd and DP (and I) thought it'd be a nice thing for them to do.

Actually, we also have DSC's (eldest) name on a waiting list to join beavers. He's desperate to do it and loads of boys in his class go. My dd does Brownies (both held in the evenings at church, although a different one to the Sunday school one). I always thought of it as a club held in a church, but I suppose it's classed as a church led group too? Sounds like DSC might not be allowed to join in with that too if that's the case.

Do you think a court would order a child can't go to Sunday school if one parent objects but the other parents wants them too. (Not saying DP will go against her wishes, I haven't even shown him this yet and it's an issue that's only just come up, but just wondering after reading cowthymows reply.

I would't be too impressed if I was her, how does she know it's not some weird evangelical sect? and it is stepping on her toes, religion is down to the mum IMHO.

If your DP and their Mum have the children half the time each, then she can no more dictate what they do when they are at yours than he can about what they do when they are at hers. A court would not be able to, nor want to, say you and dp can't take them along to Sunday school anymore than it could insist on her taking dsc to Sunday School on her week, because he wanted her to. Shared parenting is about understanding you cannot be hovering and dictating to the other parent what goes on in their time, even if it is difficult to 'let go'.

Backforgood

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that issues like education and religious upbringing are more serious matters and do indeed need to be agreed upon. It isnt simply a matter of saying the parents are 'hovering over each other' as you put it.

BACKFORGOOD DO and I are aware that the children act dictates that certain decsions about a child's life cannot be made unilaterally. Decisions about their education for one, and religion is another one. I was just asking for opinions for DP and to see if anyone knew if attending a church group would be seen as going against this, in court.

NELLYJOB I do not think I am stepping on anyone toes, not at all. DSC has asked to do something that my DD does. That's all, I have not asked, not done or even suggested anything to their mother. My DP does that as they are their kids not mine.

Also I find your comment of "religion is down to the mum" a little odd, perhaps I read it out of context. Are you meaning religion is down to the parents to decide or do you mean a mother should decide religion related things over a father?

My DC's don't attend Brownies or Beavers precisely BECAUSE of the religious involvement.

I have found plenty of other outside school activities that do the same things without the religious bits added in - craft clubs, dance clubs, gym clubs and a local orienteering club for DD, again the local orienteering club for the DS's, as well as football clubs, gardening group and science clubs for them.

There is no need for a child to have involvement for religion if the parent/s don't want them too.

I as a mother would be unimpressed if one of my young children came home from their Father's house saying grace, when their fathers were non religious. I would put it down to the involvement of a SP who was foisting her religious beliefs on my DC.

Sorry if that is hurtful, but I did not have children with religious men because it is SUCH a big issue to me, if my DC's were then being what I would feel as indoctrinated at a young age, before they are ready to understand all the issues involved with religion, and to make an informed decision for themselves, I would be very unhappy.

And yes, it IS possible to get court orders on the basis that your child is not to be involved in religious ceremonies - I have one preventing my DS1 from being involved in Wiccan ceremonies (yes, it IS an officially recognised religion), because his SM was trying to make him join in with Wiccan ceremonies when I and my Ex-H had discussed religion before having DC, and at regular intervals after his birth, and were both in agreement that he should make his own decisions when he is old enough to understand the implications.

So just letting you know that if there has been a prior agreement between the parents their DC's were going to brought up non religious, a court order CAN be awarded.

do you mean a mother should decide religion related things over a father
yes that is what I meant, although I am sure others would disagree.
besides as another poster said, if both parents are not religious, and it is your DD that goes to sunday school, how would that appear to the mother?
Put yourself in her shoes.

Some people are totally 'meh' about religion, others have very strong views. I would be seriously pissed off if DS' dad found a superstitious crap-peddling partner and started sending DS to a Sunday School. The Sunday School that you use may well be fluffy Anglicanism and probably harmless but all religion is fundamentally toxic and an awful lot of it, especially these days, is all about imparting nasty ideas about the inferiority of women, LGBT people and non-believers. So your DSCs mum's viewpoint is more reasonable than yours.

COWTHY I understand where you're coming from. I had no idea that people feel that strongly against clubs like Brownies etc. I am not at all religious, don't believe in any God etc but Brownies is something dd and many of her (also non religious) frends do so the little religius bits (and I can't say I've noticed many) aren't a problem for me personally, but I appreciate an opinion from someone like yourself who takes offence from it.

We didn't teach them "grace" by the way, although we do let them all say it at dinner as they like to. The you est was taught it at the Pre school they attend (in a church) that their mother chose. So that's why I mentioned it. She's happy for them to attend a church run Pre school 3 days a week but not happy about Sunday school for an hour every other Sunday.

I have no idea what "Wiccan" is, devil worshipping or such like? Sounds a bit creepy though. We are not religious crazies or anythinhs similar. Sure, there are many other activities that they can do, I just can't get my head round why she objects so much. Well, I can now I suppose.

Nellyjob- I certainly disagree, and I find sexist views like yours akin to other equally disgusting discriminatory views so we will not go into that on here, except to say it's because of people that, like you, believe mothers are superior to fathers, that so many men are having to fight for the opportunity to have a meaningful relationship with their children equal to the one they have with their mother!

really threelittlemonkeys am I "sexist" oh boo hoo.

so sorry if you find my views 'disgusting' - actually if my kids' dad so much as lifted a finger or even perhaps a phone - that would be nice, sadly the bitch of a a stepmother prevents that.
and please don't tell me your kid says grace of her own accord.

Wicca is the reverence of mother earth as the giver of life, and the cycle of nature etc, nothing to do with devil worship. Still an organised religion in my eyes though. I think you are thinking of satanism.

I would be unhappy with my child saying grace if they had brought it home from pre-school too. Even if it run in a church hall, if it was the only option for pre-school I would be unhappy. I am lucky in that I have a pre-school local to me that has no connection to any church.

Firstly I do not understand why you take them to sunday school when you are not religious?

To then push this idea when you are not religious is even odder.

This is really not your call.

If the Mum doesn't want her going to sunday school then you need to respect that.

Nelly - as a mother and a main carer for my children, with a couple of spectacularly useless Ex's as fathers to two of my DC's, I feel your views that mothers hold some sort of ultimate sole choice on education and/or religious issues rather sexist.

I have had to go to get a court order to make my ex stick to our pre-agreed boundaries on religion, yes, but I fully include him in all educational decisions.

Despite an ongoing issue with my DS1's SM being physically abusive towards him, and not currently having contact with him, his father is still fully involved in the decisions we are currently making about Secondary school applications for DS1.

that sounds very civilised couthy - but I didn't say that mothers have 'ultimate sole choice' on education or religion.

good that your ex has an interest....