Why children shouldn't be given the choice!

[NotaDisneyMum]

I know a lot of step-parents deal with the issue of one, or both, of their DSC's parents allowing the DC's to choose whether or not to have a relationship with the other parent - and as some of you know, this situation with my own DSD was reinforced by the family court process .

Last year, I was fortunate enough to meet Karen Woodall from The Centre for Separated Families, and we discussed this, and how she believes that giving children the choice whether to have contact with a parent is incredibly damaging.

Karen has recently written an article about it, which has been published on her blog, here:

Karen Woodall article

NADM you probably already know that I agree with you!
But this - "This is not child focused practice, it is child determined practice and, in our view, it is very damaging to children." is a great way of putting it - and I think could also be applied to so many other step-parenting situations! We - and those around us - confuse "child determined" with "child focused" all the time, to the detriment of the family and the child.
Thanks for posting this.

I absolutely agree. "Normal" parents don't allow their children to make major life changing decisions on a whim. My DS doesn't choose what he has for dinner or what time he goes to bed or whether he does his homework or not. Yes, he has a say in all these things but he doesn't call the shots. So why do the courts say that a teenage child can choose whether or not to see their parent? A major decision that can impact on their future life massively.

My DSS doesn't come to us for some of the contact days we have the other DSC, he is 12 yrs old. When we ask him why he doesn't want to come, he can't give us an answer, but apparently that doesn't matter and he has simply stated he doesn't want to come and that is good enough to stop contact. If he is old enough to make that decision, surely he is capable of backing that decision up with his reasons?! If we question him, however lightly and gently, we get threatening e-mails from his ex wife accusing us of emotionally abusing DSS.

My own DS father has been inconsistent and unreliable with contact and yet I have still encouraged a relationship between them, often to my own detriment. I am really having doubts at the moment as to what is right for DS after a protracted period of unreliability from his father and contact being a not very positive experience for DS when it does happen. But I am still struggling to hand the control over to a 14 yr old boy to make such a massive decision about his own life without the emotional experience to back up that decision.

I am reading the blog, and Karen's website, with great interest and have forwarded the link to DH - (also known as BOM'[email protected])

Interesting article, thanks.

I think the Cafcass reports carry more weight to the child's wishes, the older the child is. But ironically, it's teenagers who tend to want parenting the least - so many of them may express a preference for living with the parent who is the least effective parent because that gives them the most freedom.

My parents are still married so I was never offered any choice in where I lived - but if I had been I'm quite sure that at 16 I would have said that I didn't need parents at all and would manage fine on my own. If I'd had a really slack parent who imposed no rules on offer to live with, I'd have jumped at the chance.

There's also a difference between the big issues and the little ones though - with my own DCs I (and my ex) do involve them in the detail of the routines they have between two houses - we recently adjusted our routine to mean longer times at each house and less chopping and changing, and DS's request. But the big issues - like do you want a relationship with this parent or not? And, who do you want to live with? are not ones that the child should not feel they have the authority to make.

Absolutely redhen. Do these 12/ 13 year olds realise that statistically, the decision they are making is condemning them to a life of shit relationships, insecurity, lonliness, trust issues, addiction to drugs/ drink/ sex etc... this is the reality.
But hey, as long as the resident parent "wins" the competition of most loved parent who cares, right?

That is so true purpleroses - ask DSd when she was 7 to choose which parent she didn't need and she wouldn't have done it - ask her now at 12 years old and the parent with no bedtime, no curfew, no rules, loads of junk food, the pedigree dog, the big house, games room, who laughs when she gets a detention and who has convinced her that she's her best friend and they can't live without eachother as no one else understands them... wins hands down (funny that!)

Thanks NADM, I recall reading the book and thought it was written with insight.

DH's ex (during one of her earlier marriages) insisted that DSS changed his surname and should reduce contact with DH so that DSS would fit in to her new family. DH resisted the change and the ex told DSS that it would be his choice when he was older (10 or 11). However the ex's marriage broke down and DSS doesn't have anything to do with the step father so thankfully DH is still in DSS's life and he hasn't changed his surname.

Welcome back BOM, hope you're doing ok

Thanks smum!

I think there are alot of situations where the mother would prefer to pretend the father didnt exist when they get re-married. In the case of DSD her mother is a very proud person. She already had a child with one man at the age of 14 whom she gave up for adoption, she then had DSD with my DP at 28, and is now pregnant again at 41 with her third and a different man.

I just know from several conversations with her when we were on firiendly terms and also from conversations with friends and family that know her that this fact will literally be eating her up inside. She will be very ashamed. Much easier to wipe away DP and pretend they are one big happy family.

It won't have even occured to her that this is to the detriment of her DD. Because inher mind her DD is merely an extension of her and what is good for her is good for her DD... in her tiny little narc mind anyway!

We get this choosing issue with DH exW even though they have a 50/50 shared parenting arrangement.

She will ring every day they are here and on a few occassions she has asked them if they are OK, if they are missing her and then when she has got them upset she has offered to come over and pick them up. We then have tears and hysterics as they can't decide if they want to go to Mummys or not. I say "Of course you can't decide - that's why there is a rota in place so you always know that on these days you will be at mummys and on these days at ours."

It's not fair and is actually emotional abuse to do that to children.

Hi

We dont have this problem so much (but my DH's ExW consistently reinforces "her" time) as their spilt was amicable. I dont have any kids either.

We prevent under 12/14/16/18's from doing certain things in our civilised society - rightly so. We protect them with laws. There is the potential for damage as they are not mature enough to make an informed (ie mature) decisions in respect of certain things. Getting married for instance, tattoos, driving. Seems crackers to me that they are given reign to make a life altering choice at 13.

I think this also has a wider aspect too. We live (rightly or wrongly) in such a child centric society. Is it actually doing them any good?

It is brought to the fore more in sep/step families as this article reinforces.

As an example - I was sorting out what do do for a holiday with the kids in August and wanted to book somewhere. I came up with options from camping in cornwall (cheap) to all inclusive in Turkey (think of a number and double it) and wanted to chat to DH about it, get it sorted.

I find going on holiday with his kids incredibly stressful. I am making no excuses, they are very demanding. One of the wets the bed every night one is going through real teenage defiance and loses it regularly. Its really hard. I put all the options to him and my DH said "ooh lets consult the children on this". Err. No. They will of course want to do the all inclusive and anything else will be a disappoinment and rubbish. I was focussing, he was determining.

My DH (who is NRP) feels like he has to "consult the kids" on everything from what take away to have on a saturday night to what colour to paint the kitchen. Is he/we really equipping them for life? I doubt it.

In our house I am trying to keep the "children should be children" mantra alive...

taxiforme that was a fantastic post.

I agree that we are far too child-centric as a society and this is borne out by the fact that our teenagers are poorly disciplined and our young adults are entitled (sorry to make a sweeping statement but every time I hear "that's just what teenagers are like these days" I cringe)

It crosses all types of family dynamic but it is certainly brought to the fore in separated and step families where the adults involved are far more driven to either placate children who they perceive to be disadvantaged, or to "win" favour from children whom they are using a weapons or trophies.

Just this morning I was unsettled when a friend of my DD?s came to me in the playground and said (as I had invited her on holiday with us via her mother ? her mother and father are separated) ?Mummy said I can go on holiday with you but Daddy says I can?t so Mummy?s going to send Daddy a text message and say he?s being silly because I want to go?
The mother is a dear, dear friend of mine and has really struggled with the divorce. Granted, the dad is very overprotective sand it would drive me mad too. No one gives you a handbook on divorce and so I?m not judging her. But she should have sorted this all out and come to an agreement about the holiday way before involving the child. Now if she doesn?t go, Dad?s the baddy, and if she does go, she?s knowingly undermining her dad ? with her Mum?s blessing? It?s all wrong.
I agree, let them be children.

I have been frustrated to the point of screaming by the attitude of DSD school - who quote 'Gillick competence' at my DP like it is a shield to hide behind when things get difficult

The double standards are disgraceful - if a DC chooses not to attend school, then that DCs parents are responsible - but if that same DC refuses to see a parent, the school 'respects the DC decision' and won't get involved.

It's bks

I think one of the problems is that there is little understanding of how the lack of a father in a child's life affects them.

And as for Gillick competent, it isn?t a sweeping across the board status for all children over 11/12? it?s judged by a medical professional based on many factors ? but crucially, what is best for the child!!!! . And it is usually in the event of a decision needing to be made on an emergency preventative treatment such as oral contraception, or to carry out an abortion ? both of which are in the interest of the child. It would be far less detrimental to an 11, 12, 13, 14 year old to have an abortion (and I would argue that the only time a parent would want this not to happen would be due to cultural or political reasons rather than for the pure good of the child) than to decide not to have a relationship with their parent.
Gillick protects adults from making bad decisions for children. Allowing children to choose not to see their parents allows them to make bad decisions, based on their parent?s bad decisions. It?s not at all comparable.
[climbs in to NADMs vacated spot on the soapbox]

BOM - our experience is that Gillick competence is used as a general sweeping statement - it has even been quoted in letters to DP from the school when he has sought involvement in DSD education - they say that she is Gillick competent and so her choice not to involve him is respected by them. He is planning on quoting it back at them when she truants and they try to hold him accountable!

What a fantastic article, thank you OP. We get this all the time - but it is amazing how DSS's choices 'must' be listened to when they exactly coincide with ex's wishes, and how they are completely disregarded when he decides he wants more time with DH.

We are currently applying for holiday contact for DSS. We think this is something that would be good for him and that he would enjoy. We feel he could cope with it and it wouldn't upset him because he expresses an interest in our 'family' holiday and because he has a great time when we go away for a weekend.

His mother says she has sat him down and asked him 'over and over' to tell her the truth, does he really want to go on holiday with Dad and hurt her because the stress would be so great it would make her ill...apparently he said he wasn't bothered so this is his view and it must be listened to.

balia - that is now known in this house as selective child determined parenting; the DSC's mum is an expert.

In other words, I'll let the DC's do what they want to do all the while I want it too, but when I don't want it, then I'll enforce my will upon them

DSS is now mature enough to see the inconsistency in his mums approach, which we think is one of the reasons he is so conflicted and anxious at the moment. When he was younger, he accepted everything that his mum and dad told him without question. Now he is older, he is starting to wonder why it is that his mum gives him the choice whether he wants to see his Dad, but when he asks his mum if he can spend longer with his Dad, she tells him that it's not allowed, because the court order has to be followed.

Since when did kids 'consent' to info being sent home from their school? Do they allow every child to refuse for information to be sent home eg when they get detention or stop handing in homework? The point of PR is that legally the parents RP or NRP are in exactly the same legal position when it comes to information from the school. Gillick competence is irrelevant.

Sorry nadm, I thought gillick was for medical stuff - must brush up on vocab!!

BOM - it was, originally, medical consent and the Frazer guidelines relate to contraception for young people - but it has been jumped on by any number of agencies who provide services for children and misused; possibly through fear of litigation, but my cynical self says that it is also in order to avoid having to get involved in the icky bits - such as when a child refuses to see a parent

lurker DP feels incredibly let down by the school - they provide him with the bare minimum to stay inside the law, and anything else is withheld on the basis that "DSD doesn't want it". He has missed out on her representing the school in national competitions, county sporting events, option selection evenings and any number of other parent-school interactions
The worse thing is that DSD assumes that the school is telling him and then accuses him of not caring because he hasn't wished her luck or been to see her in the events in question - of course, she clams up when he asks why she didn't tell him about it (or her mum, for that matter .)

It does infuriate me - society holds parents accountable when their DC's refuse to attend school, and an "appropriate adult" must be present if they get into trouble with the law - but at the same time, the family courts defer to DC's wishes once they are over a certain age, and schools seem incapable of making the link between a DC's emotional welfare and their academic attainment, so won't get involved

It was DSd's parents evening about 6 months ago and the ex didn't want to go (didn't have time apparently in between her 12 hours a week work) and DH went along. DH didn't go because she wasn't going, he wanted to go.

so now parents evening has come around again, no one told DH about despite his requesting to receive letters etc as well as her Mum. DSD let it slip last weekend but said "oh mum and boyfriend are going becuase you went last time" She looked a bit worried when he said no, he was going too. As her behaviour has got a lot worse since all this happened at Christmas time. She knows her Mum won't do anything but her dad will - if the teachers reprimand her I mean.

So he told ex he was going, she said no need - her and her boyfrined are going, he went last time, not fair he gets to go to both and she doesnt!!! (She rewrites history regularly) So the poor chap is going along, unwanted, next week to no doubt spend the evening being put down by all three of them and being made to feel like a second class citizen.

I know it's awful but I keep mentioning how proud I am of him and how important it is etc in case he gets the collywobbles and let's her bully him out of it.

As far as I'm concerned he's that poor kid's only hope of having any decent parenting beyond what she gets from her 42 year old BFF!!

BOM - Why is your DP going with his ex? ExH and I have separate appointments with teachers for DD parents evenings - there is no way in hell I would sit with my exH and present a united, co-parenting front when the total opposite is true

Of course, it also means that DD doesn't know what her teachers have said about her to me, which keeps her on her toes

Well, for me personally - my ex and I do present a united front to DD. We actually dislike eachother greatly but have some how maintained the line that she is the most important thing to both of us and it is good for her to see that we are the audlts, and she is the child and we parent together even though we don't live together. (That isn't meant in a smug way - it's mainly down to luck that we are both on the same wavelength there!)

But as for DH's situation, it's one of these parents evenings where the kid has to go too and then each teacher talks to the parents and the child about their performance and behaviour. I think they call it "Pupil review evening" So he can't get DSD to do it twice (it's all held on one night anyway so not enough time even if she agreed to it, which she wouldn't)

He could ask to meet the teachers seperately and go alone (and has done in fact with three of them where he feels there are particular concerns that he wants to address over and above "pupil review") but he wants to be involved in the review process too so that he is alongside DSD just as much as her mother is.

It will be very hard for him (harder for her because she is an emotional cripple) but he's going to brave it.

BOM your DH sounds like mine and his situation.
Last time he wasnt informed of an important meeting with the school (DSS has extra funding cos of LD) his exW's words were.."well you are not the parent with..care ". Bless him I dont know how he keeps his cool..

You guys are so great and god knows how you do it. Its a bl**dy mine field bringing up kids.

I hope this isnt a hijack of your thread but I could really do with some advice and you ladies seem to have a great understanding.

I totally agree that children shouldnt choose to disassociate themselves from a parent and at times it is and can be pressure from another parent which pushes the child to alientate themselves from a parent.

Our situation is different but we are now totally stumped as to where to go..

Last June my SD moved in with us, she is 15. She hasnt spoken to her mum since middle of June last year and still has no plans to do so. The catalyst for the move was another huge screaming argument with her mum which involved her mother phoning her own parents and screaming at them for some advice they had given to my SD, it was the last straw for her and she rang her Dad to come and get her, she was hysterical and couldnt speak. A few days later when things were calmer she went to her mums for dinner, she was home 20 miinutes later, I opened the door and she was inconsolable, I have never seen a child so upset and I just held her and phoned my husband to come home.

My SD has always had a difficult relationship with her mum, as she constantly told SD how "bad" her father was and even told her that when he got involved with me he would love my daughter more than her!! The counsellors said SD has been emotionall and verbally abused for years :(

SD finished her last counselling session in January, the counsellor didnt say much to us but it seems that it is really up to SD if she wants to have contact with her mum. Her mum is desperate to see her but refuses to believe she has done anything wrong - her words are "I have been a loving and wonderful mother" she says that SD is going through teens or thats its my DH fault for leaving her (12 years ago, no other woman just bad marriage)

There is another child SS who leaves with his mother and we seen EOW and twice a week.

We dont know what to do now???

SD is very happy, happiest she has been for many years, doing GCSE's and has good social life.

Do we force her (any attempt has resulted in tears, door slamming, and a resounding no) how do you force an almost 16 yr old to see her mum