Why children shouldn't be given the choice!

[NotaDisneyMum]

I know a lot of step-parents deal with the issue of one, or both, of their DSC's parents allowing the DC's to choose whether or not to have a relationship with the other parent - and as some of you know, this situation with my own DSD was reinforced by the family court process .

Last year, I was fortunate enough to meet Karen Woodall from The Centre for Separated Families, and we discussed this, and how she believes that giving children the choice whether to have contact with a parent is incredibly damaging.

Karen has recently written an article about it, which has been published on her blog, here:

Karen Woodall article

Wow! pinkbraces sounds hard.

I guess my question would be, are you absolutely sure that neither you nor your partner have alienated her Mum in anyway?

Have you bad mouthed her Mum?
Planned more fun things for her to do when she was supposed to be with her Mum?
Involved your DSD in talks about details of the divorce such as CSA payments or mortgages/ pensions etc?
Has your partner ever gone in to detail with his DD about his emotions following the divorce, or blamed his ex for the breakdown in the marriage?
Have either of you encouraged secrets from Mum? Or made fun of her or belittled her in any way?
Is DSD unable to put in to rational words why she prefers Dad to Mum or why Mum upsets her so much?
Does her dad act happy or proud when DSD makes the choice to be with you two instead of her Mum?
Does he act sad when it is time for DSD to go to her Mum's?

If no to all of the above it seems that your DSD has actually made the decision not to see her Mum of her own free will. If she is almost 16 it is more likely that she is in fact old enough to have made up her own mind. You can't force her no: But you should both encourage her to see her Mum and remain neatral when she talks negatively about her. Don't give any air time to the fact that her Mum is bad for her or agree that she is better off with you.

Other than that, there's not a lot you can do I don't think! Maybe it is a faze...

(I'm no expert by the way - I regularly get it wrong!)

thanks for answering :)

The answer to all of the above is no. MY DH has never ever bad mouthed his ex, infact its the total opposite. Even now when things have been so difficult he hasnt said anything which could be interpreted as negative about his ex wife. My SD is quite annoyed with him for not saying bad things, she in her naivety thinks he is to soft and lets his ex wife say and get away with murder.

My DH left a very unhappy marriage and lives with the guilt of that, he believes that his DD has born the brunt of it, and that appears to be true.

SD says her mum has abused, embarassed and neglected her (her words not ours) she says at her mums house she was treated as an adult/friend and was involved in so many things she shouldnt have been and from a very young age. For the last year at living with her mums she had stopped having friends round as her mum had taken to shouting at her and arguing when her friends were there, oh there are so many examples of how she was ill treated. (verbally not physically)

Wehave tried mediation for SD and her mum but SD wont go. Her mum has behaved in an incredibly toxic and abusive way (ive obviously left a lot of details out as dont want to risk outing myself)

I tried to talk to SD about re connecting with her mum last night (which is why Im desperate to talk today) and she wont even talk about it. The experts say leave it to her but I think its a decision she will regret, I personally think she has to try at least once.

Im sorry for the rant

Okay - leave her to it. Seriously. It sounds like she has a very trong head onher shoulders and her dad should be very proud of that. all of the details you have included about her Mum's behaviour could be said of my DSDs MUm... the difference being that DSd beleives that these are all the actions of a wonderful ,caring and brilliant mother - either that or she doesn't have the emotional strength to walk away that your DSd seems to have.

You did the right thing by sending her to counselling. If there was anything amiss then the counsellor would have got to the bottom of it. Poor kid - how awful for her.

I don't think that is a case of favoured parent Vs alienated parent. it just seems to me that your DSD knows what is best for her.

strong head

pinkbraces, of course where there is abuse, a parent should not be automatically entitled to see the child.

Has there been a formal agreement regarding DSD?

My feeling is that unless a parent has been found to be unfit, they should see the kids - but of course that relies on an unfit parent being properly identified as such, IYSWIM.

If it were me, I suppose I would be pushing for DSD to see her mum, under very controlled circumstances. Like you say, I'd be worried that she will regret the decision not to see her, or that it will backfire on her. If she were my own daughter, I might even 'force' an initial session of mediation on her.

there hasnt been a formal agreement as DSD was 15, we spoke to a solicitor who told us that no court would force her to see her mum if she didnt want to, therefore there was nothing legally which would or could be agreed.

SD mum hasnt gone tried to force the issue through court as I assume she has been given the same advice.

Mediation will not agree to any sessions unless DSD willingly goes, she cant be forced, the same goes for family counselling, it wont be considered by the counsellor unless DSD agrees. DSD has been to counselling on her own, through school and through GP. She doesnt even have to see her mum to go to mediation as they want to see DSD on her own, mum on her own and my DH on his own, after these initial sessions they will decide how to move forward - she wont go.

I believe the biggest single factor is that SD mum does not believe she has done anything other than be a good parent, she believes its SD fault for being difficult, being a daddys girl and not lying!!

I dont understand why I am trying so hard to reconcile them especially as SD is so adamant and we are also aware that she is in the middle of GCSE's and we dont want her to be upset.

I just dont ever want her to say to us we didnt try hard enough.

ooops meant lying

If you keep all communications and note the efforts you have made in a diary - you will have something to show her when she is older. One of the biggest problems of alienation is that the child will turn on the favoured parent when they are older as they will resent the fact they were given so much choice over something so important that they shouldn't have had to deal with.

But the benefit you have is that as she is older than some of these children she will hopefully remember your attitude. Keeping a diary is a good way to show it as well.

Hope you don't mind me gatecrashing - but I wanted to ask a question.

I'm not a step-mum - but an ex-wife. Not a bitter & twisted one & I hope I don't behave badly - just get that in quick before the hackles go up.

When do you think a child should choose. I have always encouraged (in some cases made) my two go & stay with their Dad & Step-Mum every 2nd weekend. As far as I'm concerned, they only have one father & it is important that they have a relationship with him.

However, my eldest is 12 now, will be 13 this year & is often very reluctant to go. At what stage, do you think that they are old enough to choose?

I just dont ever want her to say to us we didnt try hard enough.
No, I understand what you mean. Seems like you have tried very hard, though, and done well by DSD. It sounds very tough Maybe you have done all you can for now, and can just talk to her about it again in the future, making sure she knows she can change her mind without losing face or upsetting her dad...

I should say, by 'force', I didn't mean dragging her there kicking and screaming! More like "push and coerce" - but I can see that would still not count as "willingly"!!!

My own DSCs have refused all offers of counselling...I think they would really benefit from it and would like to push them about it, but my DH is unwilling to pressure them to go. I see his point, but I worry we are giving up too easily. . (Not at ALL saying that you are, by the way - different stuation!)

oh, good point, bom.

PostBellumBugsy Can your 12 year old put in to words why she doesn't want to see her dad?

Is it any more elequent than whens she puts in to words why she doesn't fancy going to school? Or why she doesn't fancy eating her vegetables? Do her homework?

If you don't let her make those choicesyet, I would say she isn't mature enough to decide that she doesnt want a relationship with her father. It's a pretty huge decision to make.

I think it depends as to the reasons why and what other arrangements may be in place. I think a 12 year old is to young to decide. Do you know why the reluctance is there?

My DD is almost 18 and she stopped going to weekend accesses with my ex about 2 years ago, but it was agreed and he fully understood she wanted to see her friends at the weekends - they changed the way they saw each other. More lunches, dinners and shopping trips, she still goes on holiday with him and away for weekends.

She was a lot older and has a great relationship with her dad so was able to explain what she wanted and he was quite happy to fit in with her. Also have to bear in mind that my ex and are had a very amicable divorce, he gets on with my DH and therefore will pop in if he is passing for a cup of tea and a chat with DD.

Perhaps your DC thinks he is missing out at your house, or is there a new situation at his Dad's which he is unsure about. I think open dialogue with all of you and a little gentle push by you is often all that is needed.

Its a minefield isnt it?

Hi BOM, it is my DS & it usually centres around how he'd rather be at home, how he doesn't like "being treated as a slave" - obviously his words - and how they never do anything.
I wasn't intend on letting him bow out yet - but was really asking the question when do you stop coercing / making / forcing / pursuading?

thanks Bom and brdgirl it really helps to unload.

its hard this step family lark isnt it!

I was that child. I "chose" not to have contact with my dad at age 12, but the thing is, I made the decision because I felt that it was what my mother and stepfather wanted, even though they said "It is up to you". I got the impression that I had to do it to stop things being difficult.

My dad was probably depressed and in a difficult relationship with his own wife. He would turn up late or not at all for access visits and then be quiet and withdrawn during them, or would take me to his mum's and fall asleep on the sofa.

It was the right decision at the time I suppose, he needed to sort himself out. But I've never forgiven my mother for what I see as her shirking the responsibility for making the decision. I remember her saying to me "You can't turn around and blame me for stopping you seeing your dad later" and me thinking "But you ARE making me stop seeing my dad, you're just making me be the one to do it".

Also, it led to estrangement from my granny and uncles and aunts, because I felt I couldn't ask to see them. They did try to keep in contact, but it didn't really work. It was very awkard and I felt very guilty and sad. Then I went off the rails totally at 13, and my mother "couldn't imagine why I would behave so terribly".

Probably my situation is not typical, but I'm sure lots of kids' decisions would be made to please one or other of the parents. I think it is up to the responsible adults to make these decisions, and I think it is definitely true that is damaging to the children to allow them to make these decisions themselves.

OP, thanks for bringing that article to my attention.

My DH (in his fifties now) regrets his choice to stop contact with his mother. She passed away when he was in his early twenties, so he never did have any chance to get to know her again, and it has taken him a long time to come to some sort of peace with his feelings about her.

In his case, the decision was left to him at 13-14 years old. To be honest, he had very good reasons behind it and it is easy to see why his dad and stepmum did not press the point.

Did they do the right thing? I don't know, and I don't think DH knows. It may have protected him from harm.

Pink and bugsy - I feel very strongly that is up to the RP to ensure that their DCs maintain contact with the NRP - in the same way as there is a responsibility for them to go to school, or be seen by a Dr.

Would you say to a truant officer - 'oh, but she doesn't want to go to school, I cannot force her?' or allow her to avoid a medical or dental appointment that is needed because she didn't want to go?

Nothing, IMO, is more important than a DCs relationship with their parent - and it can only be repaired and maintained through contact. Once that is removed it is 100 times harder to ever repair things.

Teenagers choose the easy option - and repairing a relationship is hard - but allowing them to opt out is failing them, IMO

I agree with NADM - PostBellumBugsy the reason your DS is giving are just as non-sensical and immature as why he would say he doesn't want to go to school or eat his greens. It's pprobably easier at your house so he'd rather be there than at his dads where he has o do more around the house. Your ex's crimes aren't worthy of him losing his son over.
In tog ether couples kids manage to deal with not being happy about housework - you need to give your son the same chance to have a relationship with both parents as any other child, not let him opt out.

In answer to your question, I think if there is no abuse etc. then there will never have to be a time when this choice is made as by the time they are old enough to.. 16/17 they won't feel the need as they will be a bit more mature.

They might change the contact arrangement to suit their social life when they're 15/16ish but that is healthy. never seeing your parent, or drastically reducing contact isn't healthy.

And thank you so much wildstrawberryplace for sharing your story. I wish i could show it to DSD

Thank you Strawberry and brdgirl I am going to print off your stories and show them to my SD.

NADM, I have only shared a very tiny amount of what has happened over the last year, my SD has not taken the easy option, in fact she couldnt have taken a harder one if she had tried. She has dealt with the fall out from her decision with maturity and clairity for one so young.

Allowing a grown up to opt out of responsibility is much worse in my opinion.

brdgrl dad died when I was 22, and like your DH I never had a reconciliation or chance to make any sense of it. By the time I was in a good enough place in my life to seek out and contact his family, my aunt told me my granny had passed away three months before my phone call

My own history has made me absolutely determined to ensure my DC have lasting relationships with their extended relatives, I do not want them to feel troubled and isolated like I did.

I ams orry to hear your sad stories brdgirl and strawberry.

Another side of things that I worry about is what is the favoured parent dies... and the child have severed all ties with the alienated parent?

Both DSD's maternal Gran and grandad died fairly young (40's), one of cancer and one of a stroke. Her Mum has always smoked and drinks a lot too. There is every chance she will not be with DSD in to later adulthood.

I can't understand how a loving parent could risk not nuturing the relationship their child has with the other parent. They could end up to be thier only one!

Thank you, some very good input. Sometimes, I find myself internally sympathising with my DS, because I wouldn't want to have to spend a weekend with my ex-H. Obviously, I don't say that aloud!
You are all so right about the importance of keeping up the relationship. I will continue to cajole, encourage, coerce & persuade.

God for you post It's so much better if you are aware of these things.

I guess the point is that your children aren't an extension of you. In my own expereince, I find my ex the most irratating, idiotic, unfunny and utterly unlikable person on the planet - but my daughter thinks he is simply amzing! And that is fine, in fact it is natural and good and I'm really happy for her.

Just because we can quite happily live without our exs it doesn't mean the children can or should.