Christmas gifts for non-contact DSD?

[NotaDisneyMum]

DSD (14) has had no contact with DP for months - after giving him an ultimatum; her or me.
There were some Christmas presents for DSD under our tree - one from DPs sister/Bil, one from his parents and one from us.

Originally,DP was going to drop them off for DSD at her mums house, but has now decided to let her know they are here if she'd like to come and pick them up.

Thoughts?

It's what I do too brdgirl, we also went to 4 gatherings of either family or friends on different day. And I'm not saying that everyone has to have their presents on Christmas Day. NADMs dsd has opted out of any family gatherings, so I don't see what there is to be gained by effectively saying "come to the family gathering and you get your gifts". It all feels very conditional to me and I just don't think it's what I would do.

wax it's a fair point. Maybe we got this one totally wrong

We thought that damage would be done by DSD gloating to DSS on Christmas Day 'I've got more presents than you, Dad hasn't sent you anything' - DSS is currently in counselling for anxiety so we're trying to make life easier for him - but perhaps he just has to develop a thicker skin while he has a teenage sister!

brdgrl - just seen your comment about a teen sulking in their room missing out on dinner; coincidently, we had a very similar situation with DSD not long before she opted out of visits completely.

Like you, I think that there should be a natural consequence in that type of situation, but DP and I are increasingly discovering that we are in the minority. In the situation you describe, the approach recommended to us by others (such as IL and DSD mum) was to accept DSD 'moodiness' and take her up something special to eat to try and make her feel better.
I struggle with that kind of parenting to be honest, but maybe it's what DP and I need to learn to do if we want to maintain a relationship with any of our children Perhaps we don't have the luxury of parenting "our" way because the DC's all have the opportunity to opt out to their other home and choose the parenting style that they prefer?

Wax - that's really sad about your DSD not having any contact from her mum - I get the bravado thing - I'm sure that DSD does similar, even though she is adamant that she doesn't want contact.

How did the relationship between your DSD and her mum break down, if you don't mind me asking?
DP is open to any suggestions on how to stay in touch - DSD refused to come here, so DP started taking her out for meals or coffee, then DSD said she didn't want to do that any more, so they began to email/text to stay in contact, but soon DSD stopped replying - now DP writes to her every two weeks, with no replies at all, DSD won't speak to him on the phone, and is never around when DP picks up or drops off DSS.

Aww, no don't talk about getting it wrong. I don't really sign up to things being "right" or "wrong". You are feeling your way through what is a really difficult situation and I can only see a snapshot of what is going on, and all my comments are based on what I would do if it were dsd.

My dsd and her mum hadn't been getting on for quite a while, and after a huge argument she moved out to live with a friend. She's not local and wanted to stay put to complete her exams, which was sensible.

I think with the sulking in the room thing, what I learnt was that pandering to it didn't work. I had my ups and downs with dsd, and did a fair bit of doing that, but over time what I believe she really needed and responded to was knowing what the boundaries were. So if she missed tea, she missed tea. If she refused to come on holiday with us, we went without her. It was a case of presenting to her what we were doing and she could join in or not.

There was a period when she refused to come, but her Dad continued with periodic phone calls. Sometimes she had nothing to say to him and it was a really short call, sometimes she was rude to him, but to his credit he would just keep going with the calls, without referring to anything that had happened.

I suppose it's like that saying "the past is bucketful of ashes", ie it's done, it's gone, you can always start a new page.

ruddynorah. No im not offended that she wants nothing from me. To be honest, since we married, I've not done separate gifts from her dad. We usually choose something together or she chooses for herself. She is 18.

No, what offends me is her punishing her dad for my existence when I and we together have tried so hard to make allowances for her ( she's the youngest of 3) and always do the adult thing ie, welcome her and put up with her consistent rudeness. My duh supports me because he says I could have done no more, I have treated his three all the same and get on well with the other two and frankly, youngest sd has said she doesn't want me around. She cannot verbalise why. Because there is no ACTUAL VALID reason for this, my dh refuses to comply with his youngest child. And she doesn't like it.

On Xmas day, she came as far as the front door to say a tearful "Merry Christmas" to her day. I was behind him and offered her a cheery greeting. She didn't speak to me, didn't look at me and walked back to her mums car. It upset her dad, me, my young son and her older sister (23) who was a delightful addition to our Christmas day.

What can you do?

My ex-DSS did that thing with the ultimatum. Ex chose DSS.
I would drop the presents off at the house.

Sorry I thought she was twelve but I still think the same now I know she is fourteen. Christmas presents are a powerful symbol of love, especially to a materialistic teen.

I wouldn't cut off a "normally-badly-behaved" teen. The tough situations to call are those where violence, drugs or stealing from you become involved.

DP hasn't cut her off - he phones (she refuses), he writes (she ignores) and he used to invite her out for coffee or dinner (until she told him to stop).

His one expectation of his 14 year old daughter is that she makes the effort to walk (or ask her mum for a lift) to his house, and say hello over the doorstep.

If 14 is too young, then how old do you think it is reasonable for this to be an expectation of a child?

I don't know all the back history here, but why does he expect her to walk or ask for a lift from her mum? Why doesn't he offer to go and pick her up?

wax I thought I'd made it clear, she is refusing to see him. She won't talk to him on the phone, avoids him when he picks up DSS and ignores his attempts to contact her.

He has made it clear she is welcome to visit, and that if she wants her gifts, they are here. If she wants to turn up, take them from us across the doorstep and leave again, then thats up to her - but DP has made it clear he is always available to pick her up and bring her here or anywhere else she wishes to go.

She has missed out on a number of activities in the past because she has refused DPs offer of a lift - even when she was seeing him regularly, if the activity was not during DPs contact time, her mum would tell her she was not allowed to accept her dads offer of a lift.

NADM. I think this is one of those lose lose situations really.

She has made it clear that she wont see you all, yet those are your terms for her getting her presents. That makes the presents conditional, which I dont think I would do.

However she is 14, shes not 5, and at that means that she is old enough for there has to be a consequence for her actions. However I think i my shoes that would be no presents other than a couple of token one posted out to her, rather than her having to see you to get presents.

It sound like her mum is part of the problem if she wasnt allowing her to take lifts outside of the contact time honestly some people it is possible her mum is stiring this up?

I feel for your DP, all he can do it keep the door open I guess and wait for her to come back.

ninja you're right, it is a no win situation.

DP (and I) consider that DSD agreeing to see him for a few minutes is a reasonable condition to place on her receiving gifts, and the choice is up to her.

That's exactly what you said at the start of the thread - did you just want us all to agree with you?

acanthus not at all - I asked for peoples thoughts which we have considered and discussed at length
Just because we haven't changed our mind doesn't mean we don't greatly appreciate the time people have taken to respond, thank you

NADM, I think you have considered all opinions and made a judgment and for what it's worth, I agree with you.

Ah ok, I thought you meant it was always the case that she was expected to walk to yours or ask her mum for a lift. You're talking about just right now in order to collect her presents.

So she's refusing to come or speak to her Dad, and he's refusing to take them to her. In order to break the impasse someone has to give. I think it's unrealistic to expect that to be a teenager.

And I don't think there is an answer to your question about what age is old enough to be expected to see him in order to receive a present, in fact I'm not sure it's ever acceptable to make a gift conditional like that.

I don't doubt though that this is a really difficult situation for you.

BOM having watched Welcome Back Pluto earlier, it has confirmed to us that we could have handled things very differently - but 'we are where we are' and we can only do our best

wax the age thing isn't about the conditional gift side of things, but her attitude - I'll try and word it differently:

At what age is it no longer acceptable for a 'child' to expect gifts from people they do not like, are rude to, or refuse to engage with?

For instance - I can't stand DDs dad. I avoid contact unless I have to and am only civil for DDs sake. Despite that, he continues to try and engage with me and wants to be my friend. If he told me that he had bought me a present, which I could have if I met him for coffee, I would refuse to meet him but wouldn't expect or demand he puts the gift in the post to me. I would not consider myself entitled to the gift. I would accept that unless I met with him, there would be no gift.

How can we teach our children that lesson and at what age?

NADM

I think your DSD is old enough to not expect gifts from "people they do not like, etc" I suppose the difference is your DP is her father, and then you are back into the tricky area of how much does he behave differently because he is her father. At what point does the unconditional love a parent is suppose to have for their child stop.

Gifts are generally given without conditions, and they are generally given because the giver wants to give them. Once conditions are attached its a bribe.

Again as a different point of view. DS1 (7) refuses to see or engage with his father. Its a long messy complicated story, and weve been through the courts for 2 years, and indirect contact only has been ordered. DS1 is having therapy for the crap hes been through. XP refuses to write. There was a note in the card from the grandparents that there were presents there if DS1 would go and get them. DS1 will not go. Thus no presents. It just reinforces to DS1 despite us saying to the contrary that his dad is mean and selfish doesnt care about him, and wont listen to him. I think it was the wrong decision. Why im not sure.... Because DS is 7? Because he breakdowns at the thought of contact with his dad and I know if I even drove him there hed be in bits? Because XP is still refusing to listen to what everyone is telling him he needs to do, and still trying to get what he wants? Because his dad should be sending him a present or a card just to show he still cares? I dont know.

I suppose it comes down to the reason your DSD is refusing to see you all

• is it from pressure with her mum?
• is it because shes just a normal shitty teenager only thinking about herself
• is it because shes playing some power game against you
• or some other reason.

Its not unreasonable for her to understand there is consequences for her actions, we teach all children that from a young age. I suppose its like I said earlier, what exceptions does he make to the "general rules" because hes her dad and trying to maintain a relationship with her. But at what point does that become him being held ranson to her.

NADM: what would you have done differently, having seen the DVD? I watched the trailer and so did DH. We said it would be great for DSD to watch it but that the fallout from her mum if she found out we had been "brainwashing" DSD would be unbearable for everyone. Maybe in a year or two when it's not so fresh.
DH has bought divorce poison though.

fallen that's a really good point - the motivation for DSD refusal to interact with DP.

Initially, her mum put a lot of pressure on her to 'choose' which parent she loved, and I am certain that has done some damage. But at the same time, DSD has always been prepared and capable of standing up to her mum in order to get what she wants. Despite her mums negativity towards DPs parents, DSD is sweetness and light towards them when she wants her regular riding money - and of course, they never say no.

DSD biggest complaint about our home was in relation to the fact that DP 'parented' her.

DSD was expected to contribute to the household, and there were consequences for unacceptable behaviour (such as when she graffiti'd on furniture). The household didn't revolve around her - her demands to be taxi'd to places at her behest and her expectation that she would get special treatment (such as different meals) were not met.
This was particularly difficult for her as she had ruled the roost before her parents separated, she still does so in her mums home and she did in her dads home as well until he and I took a parenting course together. DP changed his approach, she didn't like it, and she had the option of opting out so she has.
If 'together parents' change their parenting style, the children may not like it, but they have no choice but to stick it out. When a separated parent does so, the child has the option of running away.

I think fallenninja has replied on my behalf really well! I think it's a totally different scenario because it's a parent/child relationship we're talking about here.

My only exception to that is dd's Dad, and I do buy him a gift at Christmas from the girls, and have welcomed him into my home - purely for the girls' sake.

I think that's a really good point about children of separated parents being able to up sticks and go to, or threaten to go to the other one, if they aren't getting their own way. It was something dsd often used to do, and I would say to xh that if he and her mum were together she'd have to be staying put and sorting things out with them.

It does sound like the changing boundaries (or actually putting some in place) have maybe been the catalyst, but other things have added to that which makes it harder to deal with. The thing with the boundaries though is that she does need them, and while she kicks off against them, it is actually a way of showing her love.

My dsd, now older, says that her mum would let her get away with anything, as would her dad - and that if she whined enough they would give in. She tells people that she doesn't get away with it with me - and when she's with me I don't have the problems they have with her, and I feel I have the best relationship with her.

I honestly don't want that to come across as smug and like I have always had it sorted - I really haven't. She has had me in tears, said some terrible things to me, we have had stand up rows, I have at times been grateful for the times when she wanted to stay at her mums, and then there was the issue of me being the bad guy because xh wouldn't enforce any boundaries or sanctions.

I really hope that as she matures your dsd also starts to understand what has been going on. It really isn't easy for you, and especially for you as the step-mum.

BOM the biggest mistake we made was waiting - thinking that time would help; it's made things worse.

Even if you don't show DSD the film, I would recommend that you and DH watch it - it is aimed at both parents and children. I can't emphasis enough how important I now realise it is to deal with these situations as soon as they arise; ignoring it, taking the high ground and hoping things will get better has robbed my DSD of her father

Waxtart, my sd feels that the incidents leading to her chosen estrangement from our home (and more importantly, her dad) would have been "allowed" by her mum and dad, had they been together. She feels that it's ME driving the "your behaviour has been unacceptable and a heartfelt apology is needed". She is wrong. Her dad is not impressed with what she's done and continues to do. He tries to keep the lines of commucitation open, which she ignores.

Her Christmas gift was refused. She will not be receiving it belatedly. She is off to Uni this year and is not a little girl. For years we've said "she's only 12/14/16/17" and made allowances. I wonder, will we be making excuses for her at 25/30/35?