Christmas gifts for non-contact DSD?

[NotaDisneyMum]

DSD (14) has had no contact with DP for months - after giving him an ultimatum; her or me.
There were some Christmas presents for DSD under our tree - one from DPs sister/Bil, one from his parents and one from us.

Originally,DP was going to drop them off for DSD at her mums house, but has now decided to let her know they are here if she'd like to come and pick them up.

Thoughts?

catsmother That really sums up how we feel about it -it is DPs job as a parent to teach his children the boundaries of acceptable behaviour - otherwise, what kind of parent is he? I don't see this as any different from teaching pre-school DCs the self restraint needed to leave the presents under the tree alone until Christmas day What age is that expected? Equally, at what age (if not 14) can we expect a DC to understand that if you reject and hurt someone who loves you, they won't put themselves out for you?

Yes, DPs initial plan was to drop gifts off to DSD when he collected DSS on 27th Dec - which would have meant DSD receiving and opening her gifts before DSS, which is why DP changed his mind. I am astounded that anyone thinks it's acceptable to send a message to a child that if you snub your father, and are rude to him, you get preferential treatment

As an aside, DSD mum came to pick up a forgotten item last night and she didn't ask for the gifts.

Oh, and I love the charity donation idea - I'll be doing that in future.

IME, and, so it'd seem - from reading countless tales from other stepmums over the years - that children who don't live with you are so often absolved of all personal responsibility. It's as if they have a "get out of jail free" card for almost every eventuality and it drives me up the wall. Yeah ... I get, I really do get that kids who have these poisonous mothers who use them as weapons, and/or who alienate them from the "absent" parent are often placed under tremendous pressure and must often feel very torn. But like you, I have often had cause to ask myself exactly when children like these are supposed to face up to the consequences of their own actions ? In some respects - depending on individual family circumstances of course - they might be considered "victims" but does that mean they can get away with (metaphorically) murder for ever more ? I have to admit that whenever possible my DP prefers not to confront his kids over bad behaviour .... he'll either pretend not to have noticed (i.e. how can he do anything if he hasn't heard/seen - oh-so-convenient) or else he'll drag up every last variety of often very stupid excuse to pardon their behaviour to avoid having to apply discipline .... it all boils down to a fear of losing contact with them should they decide to vote with their feet if they're "upset". After many years I despise and resent this attitude more than I have time to say here right now but apart from voting with MY feet (which would be near impossible for all sorts of good reasons) there's very little I can do about it as all my carefully worded and tactful pleas to be more even-handed and responsible, discipline-wise with them falls on deaf ears because he's basically scared of what might happen (again - have past history of serious contact problems).

"At least" - and don't underestimate how important this is and how lucky you are to have this, your DP seems to be singing from the same hymn sheet as you rather than giving in to feelings of "guilt" over these presents. I really do think he's doing the right thing .... for both children, and though SD probably "hates" him right now, chances are that when she's older she'll realise what a spoilt brat she was and that calling her on it rather than handing everything on a plate to her was the caring thing for her dad to do. I really do believe that kids who behave dreadfully but are never disciplined grow up spoilt, entitled and selfish because they never have to think about why they're NOT getting everything they want.

What a brilliant post, catsmother it expresses so clearly the feelings I have been having about DSS (9) although he is a bit young yet for taking full responsibility for some of his choices, he has already learnt exactly how to play off one parent against the other and is increasingly doing so with DH and I, even in the last few weeks.

As you say, it's all very well treating them like a victim - but what message does that send?

And well done OP and OP's DH - so hard to do the right thing in this situation, but keep going!

Why didn't you go to the meal the grandparents organised and your step daughter agreed to go to? How nice of the grandparents to try to mend bridges. You didn't like that she refused to see you, she eventually agreed to see you, so you refused to see her. You should've been the bigger person and gone to that meal seeings as she was prepared to make the effort. Why would she make an effort now you've just shoved it back in her face?

ruddy - my DD was the reason I didn't go; if it had just been me, I would have done.

DD has been incredibly distressed by DSD treatment of her and as her mum, i felt that was not the environment to help DD address those issues - there was no notice given so no time to discuss it with her.

ruddy you haven't said at what age you do think DSD will be old enough to be held accountable for her actions - or do most adults expect gifts from people they are openly hostile towards?

Ah, there in lies your fatal error NADM... you should always put the step child first.

I don't know the child in question but could she have invited you to the meal knowing you'd turn down the offer (due to issues with your DD and lack of notice and the simple fact that it would be uncomfortable fro everyone and she knew it) thus making you look like the horrible one who won't accept the olive branch while she can look all dejected over dinner and everyone there can be aghast at how NADM can be so cruel to such a poor innocent child?

I don't know if 12 year olds can be that devious but i have certainly suspected similar things myself and I'm fairly intuitive.

IME, putting any child "first" means doing what's best for them - even if they don't realise it at the time ! In other words, sometimes, some "tough love" is best for them.

I agree with NADM's stance over the meal. Things aren't always as clear cut as they may seem at first, and other children in the family do also have to be considered. When contact is sporadic, or stops altogether - sometimes for years, the impact upon other siblings is often overlooked. They can also feel sad, upset and "rejected" by the child who refuses to see the parent they don't live with. Consequently, re-introductions have to be handled with care .... for example, and I've been in this very situation, the last thing you want to do is for your child (a much younger child in my case) to get extremely excited at meeting the sibling she hasn't seen in years if that stepchild isn't committed to properly re-establishing the relationship with their parent. I was very worried that my child could be hurt all over again if their older sibling "disappeared" the next time they took offence at something (trivial, or non-existent, usually) and therefore I insisted that their relationship with DP was rebuilt first. I was right to take that stance because it took a couple of years to mend things .... on top of the years of missed contact .... and it was far from a smooth ride. I would not have wanted my much younger child in attendance at any meeting where there was regularly unfair accusations and insults flung about, as well as a number of flouncings off etc. That would have been far from healthy.

BOM I think the motive was far less sophisticated - FIL sympathised, flattered and made her feel special, and asked her if she would do it for him ( since when has a child seeing their parent been considered a favour?)

DSD chose the restaurant and FIL made it clear that she would be treated like the VIP guest of the evening.

The benefits outweighed the unpleasant bit socialising with her dads family

I have this. It's crap.

My sd hasnt been to our home or seen her dad since Aug last year. She was asked what she'd like for Christmas. Nothing, was her reply.

Hell will freeze over before she gets a "belated" gift now. She is a nasty young woman who stamped her feet, asked daddy to "choose" and right now, she is behaving so dreadfully that dad has stopped pandering.

I think the bit I struggle with is that giving the presents are conditional on the fact that the children have to come and get them. I think, especially at Christmas, it's a time when you give gifts unconditionally. Well I do anyway. You don't have to buy really lavish gifts, but something to say "you're my daughter and I love you, and I'm thinking of you today regardless of everything that is going on".

I think the ages being talked about on here are still very young, and too young to be expected to be able to deal with these situations in an adult way. They must have all sorts of emotions going on that they can't identify or own. Teenage can be hellish in any "normal" family, so it's must be so much harder for those who are in nightmare situations like these.

NADM it seems very reasonable to me.

If a 'residential child' pulled a big pout and sat up in their room, refusing to come down for dinner, I'd let them go hungry. What's the difference?

If she doesn't want to engage in even the most basic forms of civility, why on earth should she expect that to be accomodated? I wouldn't even think twice about this one. Let her know that they are there when she wants them, and put them away in a cupboard - for years if need be.

wax - none of our DCs got their presents on Christmas Day though; it wasn't our year so we waited until DSS and DD were both here and had a belated Christmas all together.
Yes, we bought DSD a gift, as did other members of DPs family, and we did think it was important that DSS and especially DD saw that there were gifts for DSD under the tree.

Why did we buy her a gift? Tbh, I'm not sure - but the original intention was to give DSD her gifts before DSS and DD - and I'm still glad that we didn't do that as it would have been a mistake.

Exactly waxtart. Her dad wants to give her gifts. You want to punish her by giving her nothing. She punishes her dad for leaving by not seeing him, she knows that hurts him. You want to hurt her.

Did the other family members want to see her as a condition of getting her Christmas presents?

Eliza- she said she didn't want anything. Are you offended she wants nothing from you? Surely that's easier for you.

I understand that children need to "get" that if they are unkind to others then those others won't put themselves out for them, but not parents. Parents' love must be unconditional however badly a child behaves, at least while they are still young enough to be classed as a child. Which twelve is. I think she should get the presents. They are late and that is enough of a consequence to her behaviour.

Acanthus she's 14, not 12, but OK - what age would you consider a child who is deliberately hurting their parent old enough not to be given that leaway?
Is it ok for adult DCs to hurt their parents? Is the expectation that parents will 'turn the other cheek' no matter what their children do to them?

I don't really understand Disney. If you knew you weren't going to be seeing her, or there were no definite plans for her to be joining you, why didn't you just drop them off at her mums' house so she had them on Christmas Day. It's a clear message IMO that no matter what else is going on that her Dad loves her unconditionally.

She's only 14 and you call her a child yourself. I really wouldn't be expecting her to be acting like an adult, or even having the inner resources or understanding to do so for quite some years.

Parents' love must be unconditional however badly a child behaves, at least while they are still young enough to be classed as a child. Which twelve is. I think she should get the presents. They are late and that is enough of a consequence to her behaviour.

DSD is 14, not 12. Which is, yes, still a child. However, certainly old enough to be held to certain standards of behaviour.

Moreover - 14 is still a child, which is precisely why DSD should not be given the option of not seeing her father. These situations where a teenage (or even younger) child takes a pout and refuses to see the nonresidential parent seem to happen frequently, and none of the adults involved should be encouraging it. No child should get to refuse to see a parent - that is not the way it works in "intact" families, and it shouldn't be acceptable in divorced families. (Obviously this does not apply where a parent has been found to be unfit, but that is an entirely different situation.) Now, I understand why the nonresidential parent and stepparent are left in a bind when this happens, and this is not a criticism of NADM or her partner at all; I think they are the ones being held "hostage" - to the whims of a 14 year-old child, who expects to set the terms of the relationship, and carry on behaving badly without any consequences. Moreover, her behaviour is harmful to the rest of the family, including other children.

On a different point - parents' love should be unconditional, and I certainly don't get the impression from any of this that DSD's father is withholding his love from DSD (or that anyone is trying to "hurt" DSD - nonsense)! Gifts do not equal love. Frankly, dropping off a parcel of gifts every year whilst makng no effort to actually interact with one's child seems far more 'unloving'.

wax I see what you are saying; what about DSS gifts? If his sister had presents from her dad and family on Xmas day, then it seems only fair that he gets his too - otherwise, doesn't that send the message to him that by 'wanting' to see his Dad, he misses out (he's only 8).

What about my DD? Should I have sent her gifts to her dads to open on Xmas day? We wanted to celebrate christmas as a family - but maybe that was a mistake

You see I think the opposite. He's clearly not a Dad who isn't interested in having a relationship, or doesn't bother for the whole of the rest of the year. This isn't present buying in the sense of trying to buy her affection. It's a gesture that, to me, would say, I love you and I'm thinking of you regardless of the current situation.

I know how hurt my dsd is that she hasn't had a gift or card, or even a phone call from her mum on either her birthday or at Christmas. I think in her eyes it really has hammered home the message that she thinks that her mum doesn't care. She desperately wanted her to get in touch - even though she was full of bravado and "I don't care".

NADM, you weren't unreasonable to expect to open the gifts as a family. DD and I had 4 different rounds of 'Christmas' this year!!! - once on Christmas Day with my DD and her grandparents, twice more with each of my sisters and their families, and finally a late Christmas with my own DH and SCs! Sure, we coudl have just opened gifts when people were not there and said thanks later - but the point is not the gifts but to celebrate with loved ones and it is much nicer when you can open a gift with the giver present, I think.
DD is only 1, but she enjoyed seeing her cousins and aunts and uncles more than she did getting a pile of gifts. That is how it shoudl be, even once we get older, after all. Hugs to you.

I would just carry on with the family day with the gifts to your dd and ds given then. He's not missing out on anything, he's just getting his on a different day.