Update - DH and DSD contact/ maintenace etc.

[therantingBOM]

To update - poor DH is putting on a really brave face but things have taken a really bad turn with DSD only seeing us for Xmas day afternoon and now isn't coming back for the forseeable future. We opened presents then went for lunch and she spent a couple of hours in her room texting her mum (on her new iphone) until she came to fetch her. My DD was confused and upset as they ahve always been sisters in her eyes and she didn't understand why her sister no longer wants to be there.

She's cancelled being with us on New Years (we thought this was an empty threat) and she is sticking to not coming here in the week anymore.
Who knows if she'll continue to come every other weekend but at the moment it seems to be doubtful. she is literally being held ransom until money is given (although seemingly willingly held!)

Her mum is now pregnant so we are unsure as to how this will affect things.

DH has always had his DD with him for 3 - often 4 - nights a week plus most weekend day times, he has driven half an hour/ an hour out of his way 4 times a week after (or ahead of) a full day's work. He has paid her mother maintenance money as if he were a completely absent father with no contact. On top of that he has paid phone, laptop, dentistry, pocket money - and maintained a home for her here... THIS IS NOT A FATHER WHO DOESNT CARE! Now he's losing everything. I'm trying to keep a brave face on for him but my heart is breaking.

DSD has been convinced that her dad doesnt care about her and that their relationship is unimportant. How can she think this with all the above evidence to the contrary. I am so angry with her mother for this.

Why would you want your DD to not have a relationship with their father - why would you beleive yourself to be enough for them alone? What if her Mum dies (there is a hell of a lot of young cancer in their family) and DSd has pushed everyone else away? Will her mother be enough then? Dsd only has one real grandparent yet my parents have always treated her like their own - she won't see them now either, nor DH's sisters. She will literally be left with her mother... and her new partner who isn't cruel to her but doesn't act as a parent.

My ex drives me nuts and is a real wally at times but when I see how much my DD loves him and how much he loves her my heart melts. tis the way it should be, I would never deny them that.

What can I do?

I have contemplated wrting to DSD, also writing to her mum, also putting my bravest self forward and asking to meet her mum for a coffee... Although i doubt it woulddo any good. I just don't know what to do...?

I'm close to DH's sister, maybe I could ask her to try to talk to DSD. That might be an idea actually...

Considering her behaviour in the context of the rest of her life... She is pretty mercenary. She can turn on the charm and sweetness when she wants something and then go completley cold and unresponsive if A, she doesn't get it or B, she get's it and she's moved on.

She is not currently what I would call "A nice person" but that doesnt mean she can't become one... I think...

Another problem is that whilst her mother makes comments like "her head is in the clouds she can't even be trusted to hang up her coat or remember her school bag" and belittles her. She is constantly smothering her with empty compliments... you know, words like "stunning" "amazing" "fabulous" "wonderful" but with no weight behind them. I think she is projecting what she wants others to think about DSD (and ergo herself what with DSD being merely an extension of her) rather than actually appreciating DSd for what and who she is. So DSD has no real grasp of what it means to be an accountable person who is expected to treat others in a kind way... i.e. as long as she remains "fabulous" people will like her...

(god, amature psyc!!!)

It's DH's job (or so he has seen it) to subtly teach her differently, not by preaching but merely but acting in a courteous and thoughtful way & by praising her for kindness or hard work, manners etc. We have both been hoping this would see to it that DSD turns away from being a mercenary bitch but now he has such limited contact i fear the worst will happen if I'm honest.

slambang and elastamum I don't know if you've read my posts but I am thrashing out in my own head how I feel about all of this. As i said, my instinct is that she is just a child who is being manipulated and therefore she shouldn't be held accountable for any of this. I have taken great lengths to get inside her head and work out how she must be feeling.
However, as others have said - when does she become accountable? The way she is treating her dad and her step sister is bad and hurtful. If, once presented with this information, she continues to do it then I'm afriad that is nasty..

Yes, she is a child, yes she is being manipulated by her mother who is extremely powerful but when does that excuse run out..

Just arguing both sides of the coin... I'm not putting any labels on her.

I guess what i'm saying is: at what age does writing people who love and care for you out of your life, even when you know how much it is hurting them, whilst accepting money and gifts from them, become your fault?

If you look at any person with a flaw it is enevitable that at some stage someone (usually a parent) treated them badly and that is why they became who they did. Do we let all these people get away with everything? Or until what age do we?
DSd's mum had a bad start in life, I pity her for that, but it doesn't mean I think it's okay that she's treating her DSD so badly. Maybe if someone had made her accountable for her actions when she was younger, this cycle could have ended with her...

As NADM pointed out - the court decided she's old enough to make the decision to see her dad or not... yet not old enough to deal with the fact that her actions are hurtful...

Wouldn't it be a good lesson for her Dad to stand up and say "you know what, your behaviour is nasty and hurtful and I won't accept it, it is NOT okay" rather than, "there, there, it's not your fault, you behave how you like, you're only 12"

Elastamum, I don't see this as a dispute between the parents - it was the mother's choice to inform her daughter of the issue so the responsibility lies with the mother for this situation. The mum could be encouraging her daughter to see her father and remind her of all the wonderful things he does for her and how much he does provide for her.

BOM, I am sure that the daughter will rebel against her mother when she is older as she will not value any relationship. She is being taught that you give up on relationships if you do not benefit from them materially.Lovely sentiment!!

The mum's behaviour is truly disgusting and no right minded individual can condone it. I do wonder how much outrage there would be if the genders were reversed and a dad was withholding contact due to cash!

Exactly smum. Maintenance money is simply a practical way of the parent who is present the least amount of time, provide for their child while their absent.

That's it. And that is what he is doing.

To attach all these emotions to it and then drag your 12 year old in to an adult dispute where she is at the very centre and give her all the cards to hold at such an age is unforgivable. Just unforgivable. Not to mention all the other people she is hurting along the way.

She should definitely be encouraging her DD to see all the positive things her dad has done forher over the years. WE form our understanding of relationships from what we learn about men when we are children. It needs to be pointed out to her that a man like her dad is exactly the type of man she should be setting her sights on as an adult. Not that he is a useless man and one who throws money at you and is weak willed is a better option.

DSD's mother had a shit childhood, she resents that DH divorced her (the ultimate slap in the face for a Narc!) and wants her pound of flesh. I get it. But that doesnt make this okay.

BOM. I've read your whole thread and others you've written so I'm fully aware that you are a generous, tolerant and forgiving steparent and if I was in your shoes I'm not sure that I would be able to be as understanding and calm as you.

In answer to your question though, I don't think you can realistically expect a 12 year old to be able to make the tough decsision to stand up to a narc mother just because it's the right thing (from an adult point of view) to do. Judging by myself at 12 (and I didn't have an emotionally abusive parent) I was supremely egocentric and like most 12 year olds had a massive sense of entitlement. If I had thought about it (which of course I didn't) I would probably have believed that my parents enjoyed giving me generous presents BECAUSE they were my parents. They liked spending time with me BECAUSE I was their daughter. The idea that I owed them anything in return probably didn't occur to me until I was perhaps in my 20s. Teenagers just don't 'get' that their words and actions can hurt their parents unless it's pointed out.

Up til now you and dh have been the stable, calm and forgiving parents. DSD's mum has been the one making her hurt felt. Of course it's safer and easier for dsd to hurt her dad in this situation because she knows he'll still be there for her in the future (and that's how it should be). But her mum has made it plain that she risks losing her mum's love if she chooses to hurt her mum.

I'd sit her down, spell out how you and dh are feeling. Make it clear you love her but need to know that she loves you too. Then wait until she's 25 for an apology.

slambang I agree with you in theory, the rest of the world doesn't
I have lost count of the number of times DP has been dismissed when trying to seek help for DSD because she is Gillick competent

The law considers these children able to cope with adult decisions and recognise for themselves when they need support and help. When a parent seeks it on their behalf they are turned away

I can definitely appreciate this arguement "Up til now you and dh have been the stable, calm and forgiving parents. DSD's mum has been the one making her hurt felt. Of course it's safer and easier for dsd to hurt her dad in this situation because she knows he'll still be there for her in the future (and that's how it should be). But her mum has made it plain that she risks losing her mum's love if she chooses to hurt her mum"

and it's almost worth letting DSD behave badly without too much fallout for her just to give her a vent to actually be herself rather than a little mother pleasing robot.

I guess I'm still finding my way.

DSD has just called me (first contact in 12 days) because i text her to say i was looking forward to seeing her tonight - didn't want her to think we were cross with her and for her to be nervous about coming round after all that has happened. She said she was looking forward to seeing me too so i thought it wise to warn her that i am having my nails done by a friend so she would spend most of the evening with her dad but that I'd be around.

then I get several texts and eventually a call saying how nice it would be if she could have nice nails like me and if only she could afford it... sad face, winky face... But of course she can't cause she's so poor, sad face, sad face. The call was embarrassing and her mother was talking right next to her so she knew she was making it. She must have zero self-respect... (the mother that is) after all that's gone on.

I'm not paying for her to have them, I'm sorry it may only be 15 quid but I havent had so much as a text for 12 days - I assumed because Mum would think badly of her if she contacted me etc... then she calls me bold as brass right next to her mum because she wants some money.

I just can't get my head around why she's being allowed to behave like that.

Nice she's looking forward to it. Could you offer to do her nails for her yourself? Maybe your DD's too? Nice way to spend a little time together and takes away the issue of money. Best to ignore your (probably correct) suspicions that her mum is standing next to her when she texts you I would think.

Hesitant as I am to offer sp advice anymore, we did tolerate some behaviour from dsd we wouldn't in a resident child and it did pay huge dividends in the end.

Could she have them just polished and clear varnished - when we were having episodes with dsd and non contact we just acted like normalnwhen she did come.

That's just it MJ, this is how I would normally act - she asks for so much and is so rude that the answer would usually be no (I don't mean always but if she had ignored us and been rude in the house etc.) ... if I did it tonight it would be to buy her affections over the latest events.

I will definitely offer to do her nails myself, maybe I'll do it when DD visits tomorrow for a few hours so we can all be together.

Sadly I don't think she'll accept if money isn't involved but I will be extremely happy if i am proved wrong.

MJ why are you hesitant to offer advice?

purpleroses I wouldn't like to speculate over whether her mother was stood there for the texts but I know she was there for the phone call.

I just can't imagine that I would condone my DD doing that to her stepmum after all this. It is so mercenary.

Take a wander to otbt.

JEES! I'm so sorry. Eeek. If anyone can handle it, it's you wise MJ x

BOM I have just watched ' Welcome Back Pluto' by Dr Richard Warshak - it's excellent and designed for situations like yours/ours.
You can order it online from the US

Really? Wow - I'll order it! Thanks NADM.

Is it good ettiquette to keep on writing on the same thread? or should I start a new one

Was going to give an update and ask for advice on a new challenge we're facing!! Yay for new challenges

New Year, new thread?????