Update - DH and DSD contact/ maintenace etc.

[therantingBOM]

To update - poor DH is putting on a really brave face but things have taken a really bad turn with DSD only seeing us for Xmas day afternoon and now isn't coming back for the forseeable future. We opened presents then went for lunch and she spent a couple of hours in her room texting her mum (on her new iphone) until she came to fetch her. My DD was confused and upset as they ahve always been sisters in her eyes and she didn't understand why her sister no longer wants to be there.

She's cancelled being with us on New Years (we thought this was an empty threat) and she is sticking to not coming here in the week anymore.
Who knows if she'll continue to come every other weekend but at the moment it seems to be doubtful. she is literally being held ransom until money is given (although seemingly willingly held!)

Her mum is now pregnant so we are unsure as to how this will affect things.

DH has always had his DD with him for 3 - often 4 - nights a week plus most weekend day times, he has driven half an hour/ an hour out of his way 4 times a week after (or ahead of) a full day's work. He has paid her mother maintenance money as if he were a completely absent father with no contact. On top of that he has paid phone, laptop, dentistry, pocket money - and maintained a home for her here... THIS IS NOT A FATHER WHO DOESNT CARE! Now he's losing everything. I'm trying to keep a brave face on for him but my heart is breaking.

DSD has been convinced that her dad doesnt care about her and that their relationship is unimportant. How can she think this with all the above evidence to the contrary. I am so angry with her mother for this.

Why would you want your DD to not have a relationship with their father - why would you beleive yourself to be enough for them alone? What if her Mum dies (there is a hell of a lot of young cancer in their family) and DSd has pushed everyone else away? Will her mother be enough then? Dsd only has one real grandparent yet my parents have always treated her like their own - she won't see them now either, nor DH's sisters. She will literally be left with her mother... and her new partner who isn't cruel to her but doesn't act as a parent.

My ex drives me nuts and is a real wally at times but when I see how much my DD loves him and how much he loves her my heart melts. tis the way it should be, I would never deny them that.

What can I do?

I have contemplated wrting to DSD, also writing to her mum, also putting my bravest self forward and asking to meet her mum for a coffee... Although i doubt it woulddo any good. I just don't know what to do...?

I'm close to DH's sister, maybe I could ask her to try to talk to DSD. That might be an idea actually...

purple - the maintenance adjustments aren't just for food though, it's to accommodate the child within the family - and it can make a big difference.

DSD opted out of contact visits in order to increase the CSA payments her mum got. As a result, we can't afford to extend our home to give us additional space to run our business - so we have converted the room which DSD used to use as her own into family space. DSD hasn't been here for 15 months, but the fact that she no longer has her own room here (DSS told her) has led to drama and accusations that her dad is rejecting her

BOM it sounds like your DH has called his exW bluff - hence her backtracking but claiming she has forced him to compromise.

Have you looked at the characteristics of NPD and/or BPD? It sometimes helps to attach a label

NADM - the maintenance adjustments are needed for more than food from the NRP's end - esp if child has their own room, clothes, etc - but from the mum's end the food she doesn't have to buy is the only real saving from her DD staying with her dad - hence she may be better off financially if she cuts contact and gets the extra maintenance payments. Seems a rubbish reason for doing so, but it may be helpful to try to get some sense of what her logic may be.

Im convinced BPD factors into DHs ex - all sweetness and light on the surface - all mememememememem underneath.

Someone explained to me it's like she sees them as extensions is herself - so she can't see if she hates DH - why they don't.

I don't get her - on one hand she is a loving mother who spoils them on te other she is a domineering controlling individual who does everything she can to destroy their relationship with their dad by bullying them into submission.

trib there's plenty more - after she threw him out and refused to let him see dsd for months - she informed him (I heard her) he should be supporting her while I worked to support dh my ds1 and dss.

She also wanted him to promise to give her tens of thousands of pounds when his mother died - luckily MIL is still very much alive and kicking.

MJ it sounds like we are all dealing with very similar women!

Wow!!! I have read about NPD and she DEF has it...

? has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
? is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;
? believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions);
? requires excessive admiration;
? has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations;
? is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends;
? lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others;
? is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her;
? shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

High Neuroticism
Chronic negative affects, including anxiety, fearfulness, tension, irritability, anger, dejection, hopelessness, guilt, shame; difficulty in inhibiting impulses: for example, to eat, drink, or spend money; irrational beliefs: for example, unrealistic expectations, perfectionistic demands on self, unwarranted pessimism; unfounded somatic concerns; helplessness and dependence on others for emotional support and decision making.
High Extraversion
Excessive talking, leading to inappropriate self-disclosure and social friction; inability to spend time alone; attention seeking and overly dramatic expression of emotions; reckless excitement seeking; inappropriate attempts to dominate and control others.
Low Openness
Difficulty adapting to social or personal change; low tolerance or understanding of different points of view or lifestyles; emotional blandness and inability to understand and verbalize own feelings; alexythymia; constricted range of interests; insensitivity to art and beauty; excessive conformity to authority.
Low Agreeableness
Cynicism and paranoid thinking; inability to trust even friends or family; quarrelsomeness; too ready to pick fights; exploitive and manipulative; lying; rude and inconsiderate manner alienates friends, limits social support; lack of respect for social conventions can lead to troubles with the law; inflated and grandiose sense of self; arrogance.
Low Conscientiousness
Underachievement: not fulfilling intellectual or artistic potential; poor academic performance relative to ability; disregard of rules and responsibilities can lead to trouble with the law; unable to discipline self (e.g., stick to diet, exercise plan) even when required for medical reasons; personal and occupational aimlessness.

BoM we had a lightbulb moment when we read about NPD as well - it's made a huge difference in our ability to cope with her insanity quirks; we just laugh about things she says now rather than getting riled about them

We're not qualified to make a diagnosis and would never mention it IRL to others - but is sure as hell helps us get through the tough times

Exactly.. and I don't take mental illness lightly. But it definitely helps to put a tag on it.

Wehaven't had any communication today which is a relief.

I hope DSD calls on Dh's birthday on Monday though.

DH's ex also has all the traits of NPD, if you use any checklist for NPD she meets every criteria. It helps DH & I to realise that we are not dealing with a 'reasonable' person but I'm not sure how else we should interact with her. Currently our strategy is, as little as possible and we never respond to the abusive unprovoked emails.

If the primary carer has NPD what impact does that have on the DCs? What if anything can we/should we be doing?

Smum try searching google for 'daughters of narcissistic mothers' - the effects are well documented, unfortunately

One easily recognisable 'trait' is the golden child/scapegoat dynamic - one child can generally do no wrong, (all the while they behave as an extension of their parent) whereas the other is generally treated as a secondclass citizen and takes the blame for every wrong that the parent (and golden child) experience

I'll Google all that info too. Not much hope for this baby then as DSD is definitely "Golden Child" She can do no wrong and is often sighted in statments like "I can't be a bad mother because look at the beautiful, amazing, perfect child I've raised" er, actually, she's a bit of a bland brat most of the time...

Although there are weird occassions when she loses it with DSD - she has hit her round the face recently which DSD now massively down plays/ almost denies. It is always on the rare occassion that she doesn't comply 100% with her expectation... she lashes out.

The baby "might" replace DSD as Golden Child if DSD behaves in a "less than perfect" way for her mum, which might cause all sorts of issues for you & DH.

We saw this happen - all be it briefly - when DSS sister displeased her mum (nothing other than the usual teenage rebellion, but totally unacceptable to a NPD mother), DSS became golden child for a short while, but now he has upset his mum, so DSD has retaken that position.

I've just read the stuff on parentification - wow - I knew that's what she was doing to oldest sd - but I didn't have a name.

MJ the USA are so much more tuned into this; I've seen phrases from some amazing CO's that prevent RP from criticising NRP, require regular family therapy and have changed residency due to the RP 'alienation' of the NRP which is considered to be child abuse.

In other ways though, the USA is behind the UK - child support is thrashed out in court and it is the parents who have the right to contact with the child rather than the other way around.

Well given the joke that is the family law system in this country then anything has tO be an improvement.

So, still no DSD. She is coming on Friday for the night. Everyone misses her and DD had a real sob about it tonight on realising that she was coming on friday which will mean she wont see her as she'll be with her Dad.

I have left a message asking my ex if we can have DD for an hour or so so she can see her, albeit breifly. She says she feels like HER SISTER DOESNT LOVE HER ANYMORE AND THAT NOW HER MUM IS PREGNANT WITH A REAL BROTHER OR SISTER SHE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING TO HER (oops, sorry for caps!) I feel so sad for her.

I was annoyed about how DSD was being treated.. I was furious about my DH being upset so badly but now I see my DD so sad I am quite literally seething with rage. Nasty spitful grabbing bitch.

ranting BOM, is your relationship with ex such that you can swap and have DD while DSD is there, even if it means him having DD extra, or is that a big no?

BOM, that's my thoughts - can you get your weekends changed so that they sync? I do think you can be reassuring to your dd, it's hopefully a bump in to the road and their relationship will continue.

BOM - I remember when DSD was messing DP about with contact, changing her mind at the last minute etc etc, and DD sobbed on my shoulder about how unfair it was; DD worshipped the ground DSD walked on and was devastated

At that moment, I saw red, I did the whole "tigress protecting her cubs" thing, the intensity of the emotion surprised even me

Interestingly, when I spoke to one of the counsellors at Parentline about it, they encouraged me not to excuse DSD behaviour or consider her an innocent victim - they said at her age (she was just 13), she was not powerless in the situation and was choosing to behave in that way - all be it, she was anticipating a less significant consequence for herself by choosing to reject people who loved her.

I did consider swapping weekends and my ex will do what ever is best for DD but the problem is that she changed them to spite us so what's to stop her changing them back? I don't want DD feeling that her life is being turned upsidedown (by not seeing me or her dad for two weekends in a row) at the whim of DSD's mum. He has agreed to a few hours on saturday though so at least they will see each other.

NADM I'm at a loss in regards to whether DSD is responsible or not. 80% of me says she's a child who is suffering at the hands of a cruel NPD mother and she is purely reacting in the way she has been groomed to. The rest of me says she should be held accountable for the way she is treating her dad and step sister...

ha! Not sure why i used the specific 80% I hate when people throw percentgaes about I just mean the majority of the time that is what i think

I think you need to consider her behaviour towards you in the context of the rest of her life.

In our case, DSD remains civil and pleasant to DP's parents; despite the fact that she has disregarded anyone else to do with DP and myself, and her mum has been openly rude about them and to their face. But, DSD grandparents fund her extensive horse-riding hobby and associated social life, and her all her contact with them coincides with when her account at the stables needs topping up
If DSD was the innocent victim that FIL claims she is then she wouldn't be able to put on the act for her grandparents no matter what the reward, she would consider her grandparents in the same way as she sees her Dad - as it is, she plays them for as much as she can get.

Also, DSD lies to other people about her behaviour (claiming to her grandparents that she and her Dad have been too busy to see each other, for instance, rather than admitting her refusal to see him) which is a clear indication to me that she knows it is unacceptable, but all the while she gets away with it, she has no motivation to change.

I admit when it was first suggested to me that I think in these terms, I was uncomfortable, but it has become more blatant as time has gone on. I also wonder at what age it would be acceptable to hold her accountable if not now - after all, the court have deemed her capable of understanding the consequences of her decision, and she is also criminally responsible - so why should she be absolved of responsibility for her own behaviour towards her Dad?

That's a very good point... On one hand she is being awarded the responsibility - on the other she is being absolved of it...

i.e. she is being able to choose her actions, but not being held accountable for them. A bad lesson to learn you can get away with it as in life you're responsible if you hurt people.

Then again, she is so caught up in and responsible for (in her mind, due to what she has been taught) her mother's happiness or lack of it that it seems so cruel to inflict further emotional "blackmail" for want of a better word.

So if we were to say to her "Your behaviour toward your Dad and your step sister is cruel. How can you just write them out of your life like this? You are being selfish and have hurt them" she will know she is hurting them and that she is accountable, but what option does she have as if she acts to please them, the consequence is that she upsets her Mum... who in turn will tell her "How can you spend time with your dad when he has hurt us like this, can't you see he's been cruel to me and is a selfish person"

Although, maybe she has to decide what is right and make that choice and stand by it. Then no matter which party is hurting she can hold her head high and say she is being true to herself. If she decides that choice involves writing her Dad and stepsister out of her life and "siding" with her Mum (other than to accept money, mobile, laptop etc from her dad.) then well know she really is a nasty piece of work.

No, BOM not nasty, just perhaps weak, misguided, young and easily swayed by a manipulative mum.

You know she's not really nasty, don't you?

Poor thing. She is CHILD in a very difficult situation, caught up between two parents who are now in dispute. Try to look at it from her POV before putting nasty labels on her. She must be really miserable.