Update - DH and DSD contact/ maintenace etc.

[therantingBOM]

To update - poor DH is putting on a really brave face but things have taken a really bad turn with DSD only seeing us for Xmas day afternoon and now isn't coming back for the forseeable future. We opened presents then went for lunch and she spent a couple of hours in her room texting her mum (on her new iphone) until she came to fetch her. My DD was confused and upset as they ahve always been sisters in her eyes and she didn't understand why her sister no longer wants to be there.

She's cancelled being with us on New Years (we thought this was an empty threat) and she is sticking to not coming here in the week anymore.
Who knows if she'll continue to come every other weekend but at the moment it seems to be doubtful. she is literally being held ransom until money is given (although seemingly willingly held!)

Her mum is now pregnant so we are unsure as to how this will affect things.

DH has always had his DD with him for 3 - often 4 - nights a week plus most weekend day times, he has driven half an hour/ an hour out of his way 4 times a week after (or ahead of) a full day's work. He has paid her mother maintenance money as if he were a completely absent father with no contact. On top of that he has paid phone, laptop, dentistry, pocket money - and maintained a home for her here... THIS IS NOT A FATHER WHO DOESNT CARE! Now he's losing everything. I'm trying to keep a brave face on for him but my heart is breaking.

DSD has been convinced that her dad doesnt care about her and that their relationship is unimportant. How can she think this with all the above evidence to the contrary. I am so angry with her mother for this.

Why would you want your DD to not have a relationship with their father - why would you beleive yourself to be enough for them alone? What if her Mum dies (there is a hell of a lot of young cancer in their family) and DSd has pushed everyone else away? Will her mother be enough then? Dsd only has one real grandparent yet my parents have always treated her like their own - she won't see them now either, nor DH's sisters. She will literally be left with her mother... and her new partner who isn't cruel to her but doesn't act as a parent.

My ex drives me nuts and is a real wally at times but when I see how much my DD loves him and how much he loves her my heart melts. tis the way it should be, I would never deny them that.

What can I do?

I have contemplated wrting to DSD, also writing to her mum, also putting my bravest self forward and asking to meet her mum for a coffee... Although i doubt it woulddo any good. I just don't know what to do...?

I'm close to DH's sister, maybe I could ask her to try to talk to DSD. That might be an idea actually...

None - don't do it - strip right back to CSA amount - don't pay for any extras and see how l

Long it lasts - I would suggest sending some pocket money direct to DSD - and paying mobile - so dsd knows you want to help her.

It's disgusting to use your child as a blackmail tool.

I thought DHs ex was bad - well she is bad but this is just as bad.

With DD don't make a fuss dss goes away with work for months - the dcs (3.9 and 21 months) are fine - we show them lots of pictures and things - and talk about him.

I would just tell dd dsd is busy with her mummy and get dd to ring her on mobile and at the least leave messages.

How old is dsd? Is she complicit in this?

I read your other thread and although didn't post, i do want to send my support. The whole situation sounds horrendous & I'm sorry you're all going through it. I wish you all the very best.

Thanks guys [sort of smiley but also sad emoticon]

In a new twist option 1 has been revoked and he may chose option 2 or 3 but if he goes for option 2 then that 1 night will be at the weekend on a saturday and it will take place on the alternate weekend to when we have my DD. i.e. they won't see each other. Also, less important but stil galling, DP and I will never have a child free weekend night.

Her mum has always complained about looking after DSD on her own, even when she was here 3 nights a week. I personally think that now she's pregnant she's thinking that she won't get any child free time anyway so what difference does it make - plus DSD will be a nice little slave free babysitter for her.

DSD is 12 (ive been calling her a teenager but she kind of is, they all are these days huh!) So yes, it is her choice. Although we know it's not be made of her free will.

notadisneymum can you tell me anymore about this "not withstanding age" thing. I thought it was cut and dried once they were 12? I can't seem to find the info online.

option 1 has been revoked

This is like the world's worst game show, or hostage situation. Why has option 1 been withdrawn, was it a time-limited offer? She is simply making herself look madder and even less reasonable.

it will take place on the alternate weekend to when we have my DD. i.e. they won't see each other

That's pure spite - either aimed at you, your DD or both. As if involving a 12 year old in this appalling mess wasn't bad enough, a much younger child too?

This is not a negotiation. Even if he were to be forced to select option 2, there are simply no guarantees she will stick with it. Your poor DSD.

Honestly - it is cut and dried - believe me we've been there.

So basically she wants to ban dsd and dd from seeing each other :(.

I don't think solicitors will get you anywhere (no matter how hard they try).

Call her bluff. See how long she wants a hormonal teenager and a newborn - because believe me - teenagers are harder work than the baby.

I am stubborn and i would (and have) sat this sort of thing out. Dsd came round in her own time (about 6 weeks) at about the same age.

It's outrageous and frustrating and hurtful and upsetting - and you absolutely should not accede - apart from anything else what message is it sending dsd if you do this - let her mother pay everything you have been paying - except pocket money and mobile (but tie excessive mobile usage to pocket money) let her apply for reassessment from the £280.

She is playing you - she doesn't actually want dsd full time - and if she does - then this is just her excuse.

Give it. Few days with out responding to her (ex not dsd) so she has some time to stew - tell dh to stop responding to her auto matically.

It's interesting actually on that front as he has never replied to her when she is beinbg blatently unreasonable and there have been many instances of this over the years... but she has at last found a way to guarantee him getting in to a negotiation/ conversation/ etc. with her. i.e. threatening to take his DD away from him.

Well, it's not a threat - it's happened...

He is still deciding what to do and I'm trying to be supportive rather than telling him as he's being pulled in enough directions.

On one hand I think go for option 3... (for fucks sake how ridiculous does that sound!) But then on the otherhand I fell like DSD deserves to have someone fighting for her because she obviously isn't feeling like she has the right to fight for herself.

I also think it needs to be made clear to her that whatever happens now - our door is always open.

BOM I admit I've not had personal experience, but the solicitor DP had at the final hearing was fabulous and emphasised elements of the CAFCASS report that identified that DSD 'displayed a great deal of concern and responsibility for her mothers emotional state' At the time, her mum was publicly saying all the right things - so the court gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Had she written down her disregard for DSD opinions ( as your DSD mother has) then DPs solicitor would have been able to argue the need for a court order that required DSD mum to make her available for contact. DSD actually asked DP few weeks later if he could get a CO for her, rather than letting her choose - it was obviously tearing her up inside
Problem is, even if a CO is put in place, if DSD 'chooses' not to come through pressure, your DHs only option is back to court, and unless you have a bottomless pit of money, it is impossible to enforce.

I would recommend that your DH approaches a family mediation service and self- refers. They will write to DSD mum inviting her to go along - her refusing to will provide your DH with further 'evidence' of her unreasonableness should he need it in the future.

Have you managed to get hold of a copy of Divorce Poison yet? It recommends maintaining any contact possible, regardless of how unjust it seems; once contact is severed it can be very hard to reinitiate and undo the damage that has been done

I think he should fight, even if it is doomed. Not settle for option 2 and be a hostage forever, but for a contact order matching his previous arrangements. I accept this is money down the drain but to be able to say that he fought.

Thanks, and I'll try and grab a copy off amazon.

I new twist - she has just emailed to say he can now have her the 3 nights over a 2 week period without having to pay for school uniform, shoes etc. But he does still have to pay for mobile, pocket money laptop and dentist (which he wants to do anyway but she is making out like she has negotiated this for DSD)

It's still on alternate weekends to my DD.

He is confused and so am I - she also says "now fuck off and stop putting your nose in mine and my DDs business, we are trying to enjoy a nice family holiday, why won't you just go away"

He's not replying and won't do so for a few days. He's being so strong bless him but he's getting shouty about little things like dropping crumbes or the bin not opening so I think he's being quite badly affected.

I have said to him that if he keeps all these messages and emails etc, plus if he contacts a solicitor even if it desn't get him anywhere, it will be something to show DSD when she is an adult if she asks why she never saw her Dad as a teenager.

Although, it will probably be too late by then as the damage will be done.

If she's sent him an abusive email like that (assuming his are matter of fact and polite) then he could try the harassment route - my solicitor wrote an awesome letter to my ex when he was doing similar things - and I got a police report too (non-crime domestic harassment). His solicitor managed to scare him into leaving me alone for a while - didn't last, though!
As you say, the more evidence your DH collects, the better chance he has of countering this.

You both need some support to get through this; try the Family Lives helpline (formally parentline) they are brilliant.

Thanks MJ, I'm building an arsenal of sorts of all these useful numbers/ links/ groups. I'm sure we'll find some support somewhere.

All his messages have been very matter of fact. She has consistently harrassed, sometimes leaving up to 7 texts that all come across as if she is having a conversation with a brick wall.. "why won't you just disappear" then 1 minute later "get it in to your head, no one wants you" then "I don't know why you won't fuck off" It's deeply weird to read...

DSD has just called to ask if it's okay if she has an alcoholic drink on New Years eve as her Mum has said it's okay if he says it's okay - I can't work out what the game plan is there... very mixed messages for DSD

Oops sorry NADM - thanks MJ by mistake! ha ha

Jesus Christ, that's some impressive game-playing because she can't get him to respond. I think I would simply say "when you're with your Mum it's up to her what you are allowed to do" and not engage.

It sounds like some of these messages are being sent to form 'evidence' of half of a two-way conversation, which is why it's vitally important DH does not respond in between as the phone logs would then (at first glance) lend credence to her madness story.

I guess that's the benefit of these smart phones showing the convo in order as it's plain that they haven't been instigated by anything from him.

That is whay he said about the alcohol. He said it's up to your Mum. The strangest thing is that when she was with us for a bit on Christmas day she had a glass of prosecco and no one mentioned that she should check with her mum. I just can't work out the game plan - but yes, maybe it's to get a response out of him. But he has never and would never not answer the phone to DSD... it's the mother he's ignoring on the basis that she can't communicate in a civil manner.

Maybe she was hoping e would ignore the call for DSD thus giving her the opportunity to make it appear that he is somehow blaming her for all this. Of course that will never happen.

It's because deep down she probably knows she has gone too far and now she is trying to get dsd speaking to dad - was just a pretext - unless she doesn't want to take the responsibility.

With the level of contact you have had ex is probably not used to "parenting" alone without dps input - it's a new world for her without his assistance.

I'm sure it was trying to get a rise out of your DH, just like trying to separate your DSD from your DD.

Of course he must answer the phone when DSD calls, although I imagine there could be more distressing queries to come as she tries to escalate :(

Sounds an awful way for the ex to behave.

If it were to go to court, wouldn't the fact that DSD is getting swept up in her DM's (very immature) behaviour suggest that at 12 she's not really old enough to make her own mind up independently and shouldn't be able to make her own decisions over contact? No personal experience of court's decisions, but from what people have told me there's no fixed age at which the DCs have complete right to decide (below 16, obviously), it depends on the maturity of the DC - and getting swept up in parents blackmail suggests not so mature to me.

But sounds like the core of your problem is that your DH started out paying quite a bit more than he needed to, and that the amount that the CSA deduct for nights of contact is actually quite a bit more than it costs to feed a child for that many extra nights, if you're on a reasonably high salary - hence the ex is losing money when he tries to adjust to what he should actually be paying, even if she has to feed DD more often. So maybe your DH could suggest a smaller reduction of maintanence that is in line with what he actually spends on feeding her, and then suggest a second (separate) reduction to make up for the amout he is contributing in other ways (clothes, mobile phone, etc)? All the things he pays for apart from those that live at your house, are things that I would have thought the ex should expect to pay for out of his maintanence/her own resources.

Bom, I showed your thread to my DH who is livid on your behalf. He does say that you should fight, on the basis that he doesn't have much to lose..your dh has already lost contact with his daughter - first stage is to visit a solicitor and it's likely mediation will be recommended. If the ex doesn't attend mediation or co-operate it will reflect poorly on her in court.

I know court is a double edged sword - it can give the ex more ammunition "your dad is taking me to court". We certainly had this thrown at us but DH was at a point where his contact with dss was so irregular due to the ex's whims that he felt he had no option. Mediation failed as she refused to speak during the sessions and the court process was very positive. After hanging around for hours, it only took 10 mins in front of the judge for DH to be awarded contact. DSS was 10 at the time however CAFCASS wasn't involved since the ex's only reason for non contact was that it was inconvenient and she preferred if she had full control over the contract schedule.If DSD didn't want to see her dad (after years of regular contact) the reasons would be investigated and as it's so clearly linked to money I suspect everyone would see through the ex's motives and the regular contact would be maintained.

The right here is for the child to see their parent and the courts will uphold that right. There is such a strong history of positive contact and that will count in your DH's favour.

DH had to fight to stay in his DSS's life especially when the ex remarried and she was very keen to have the new stepdad as the dad. It made life easier for her, and she even wanted DSS to change surnames. DH was under major pressure even from his own family but his instinct was to remain involved despite all the barriers placed infront of him. Fast forward a few years and the ex divorced her husband and he is now vilified and he has absolutely no contact with DSS.

In our experience the nasty behaviour and texts from the ex reflect something going on in her life. Happy, contented, well balanced people don't act like this. More reasons why your dh should fight to maintain contact with his daughter.

I think he should fight totally - the problem here is her age, which would make any court order almost impossible to enforce if the dsd is siding with mum.

What we did was to keep texting normal everyday texts, as if nothing had happened (even with no response) so she knew we weren't cross with her.

Your DH should certainly do everything reasonable to see DSD, but also consult a solicitor and initiate mediaition, to reinstate contact at its previous level.

I would also request joint or a change in residency, as clearly DSD is being used to generate income by her mother. Its not unknown for this to happen even at that age, if you can prove the insanity of the RP.

Mediation is a good idea - but I would wait for her to calm down for a week or two - I was not the most rational person when I was pregnant (hopes it may be partly that).

I wonder if it's about wanting to be in control - she is pregnant by a man (if I have read rightly) she doesn't live with, her benefits are about to be stopped when she marries and also now maint too.

DHs ex went potty when he claimed dss child benefit - phones him up and screamed at him for taking "her money", despite the fact dss lived with him.

Using DSD like this is fundamentally wrong - I wonder how long it will last though - once it's clear to dsd that she is going to get less this way not more.

MJ, that's hilarious (in a scary way). Did she think child benefit was a reward for having given birth? Easy mistake to make I suppose.