Update - DH and DSD contact/ maintenace etc.

[therantingBOM]

To update - poor DH is putting on a really brave face but things have taken a really bad turn with DSD only seeing us for Xmas day afternoon and now isn't coming back for the forseeable future. We opened presents then went for lunch and she spent a couple of hours in her room texting her mum (on her new iphone) until she came to fetch her. My DD was confused and upset as they ahve always been sisters in her eyes and she didn't understand why her sister no longer wants to be there.

She's cancelled being with us on New Years (we thought this was an empty threat) and she is sticking to not coming here in the week anymore.
Who knows if she'll continue to come every other weekend but at the moment it seems to be doubtful. she is literally being held ransom until money is given (although seemingly willingly held!)

Her mum is now pregnant so we are unsure as to how this will affect things.

DH has always had his DD with him for 3 - often 4 - nights a week plus most weekend day times, he has driven half an hour/ an hour out of his way 4 times a week after (or ahead of) a full day's work. He has paid her mother maintenance money as if he were a completely absent father with no contact. On top of that he has paid phone, laptop, dentistry, pocket money - and maintained a home for her here... THIS IS NOT A FATHER WHO DOESNT CARE! Now he's losing everything. I'm trying to keep a brave face on for him but my heart is breaking.

DSD has been convinced that her dad doesnt care about her and that their relationship is unimportant. How can she think this with all the above evidence to the contrary. I am so angry with her mother for this.

Why would you want your DD to not have a relationship with their father - why would you beleive yourself to be enough for them alone? What if her Mum dies (there is a hell of a lot of young cancer in their family) and DSd has pushed everyone else away? Will her mother be enough then? Dsd only has one real grandparent yet my parents have always treated her like their own - she won't see them now either, nor DH's sisters. She will literally be left with her mother... and her new partner who isn't cruel to her but doesn't act as a parent.

My ex drives me nuts and is a real wally at times but when I see how much my DD loves him and how much he loves her my heart melts. tis the way it should be, I would never deny them that.

What can I do?

I have contemplated wrting to DSD, also writing to her mum, also putting my bravest self forward and asking to meet her mum for a coffee... Although i doubt it woulddo any good. I just don't know what to do...?

I'm close to DH's sister, maybe I could ask her to try to talk to DSD. That might be an idea actually...

I feel for you and your DH, myself and DP are in a similair situation, I can't get my head around a mother who can so easily use her children as a weapon to hurt her ex, I hope your DSD's mum sees sense soon

All you can do is wait.

She is older than DSD when she pulled a similar stunt. She went 6 weeks of sulking (it was over getting a bus) and with DSD now things are fine (mother is a different story).

I don't think you should be blackmailed tbh and I'd go a step further - pay Csa and stop paying extras.

Dads are not cash points.

Well that's the daft thing MJ - he could say "fine, don't come here. I'll go back to paying the original amount and out of that your mum can pay for everything you need" He could go down the route of really playing the absent father if that's what they want...

I don't think he would do that. I don't think he could. I hope you are right and that if we stick it out she will come back to us. Her mum's pregnancy may change things as she is a very slothful persona t the best of times. i can't see her managing a teenager full time and a pregnacny/ baby. She's in her 40s so I'd imagine pregnancy being fairly tiring as it is. (no offence to older mothers it's just that I found pregnancy knackering at 21!)

DSd has called him becuase he text to say she has lots of presents here form members of the family she didn't see over Christmas (mainly my family and frineds) and she called to ask if we could open them to see what they were then she would see if she could pop round... I am and I know that DH is completly embarrassed by her behaviour.

Apologies for the terrible spelling - I'm working and writing simultaneously!

Open them for her?

No chance I hope!

Too right MJ! I don't even think she should get them really. I would have preferred for those involved to keep hold of them and she could pick them up next time she does visit them. But they wouldn't have any of it.

My old mum has even given her a voucher as well as her presents as she was worried that she'd spent more on my DD than DSD. She really missed her too. We just don't feel complete as a 3 person family

Havent broken it to my dad or DHs sister that DSd won't be there over New Years festivities yet.

Oh and DSd got me a present which i was pretty shocked by... but when i opened it it was a Christmas Cake ready to bake cake mix thing. She just shrugged and said "well, I don't really know what you like"

It hurt so much as we've been on countless shopping trips, girly days out where we'd have our nails done and go for lunch etc. she knows I love to read and she knows where my favourite shops are. We know each other and yet it's like she wants to belittle everything I've built bewtween us.

It's not to do with cost (hopefully I don't have to spell that out to you lot!) it's more the fact that zero amount of thought went in to it and it actually felt like it was deliberatly completly void of any thought.

And there she was with her stocking that held about 6 gifts all perfectly watched to her. Chosen by me.

Maybe 2012 shouldbe the year i don't bloody bother.

perfectly matched to her!

What an awful situation for you all. Not that I think you should, but what do you think would happen now if your DH reverted to the previous amount of money? My feeling from your posts is that your DSD has been horrendously manipulated by her mother and what has been done cannot be undone just by a change of direct debit amount :(

I think all you can do now is wait it out - keep the door open to her, make something up for your DD like your DSD needing to study for exams, or help her mum out more.

I think the mum may well cave over the 'inconvenience' of having her DD around all the time, esp as her costs will therefore go up whilst her income goes down! (Awful way to think of it). And what a godawful situation for your DSD to be in, mum remarrying and pregnant (a hell of a lot for a teenager to have to deal with), suddenly forced into a battle over money and loyalties - the poor girl will need a port in a storm. Be patient - and really don't try and approach them directly; talking to your DH's sister, provided she can be trusted not to admit it was you who approached her, would be a good idea.

Hard as it is, any attempt at action is likely to backfire right now, I think. You can only wait.

Your DH, and you, need to hold firm on this one. Don't beg or plead with DSD.

I followed your last thread but didn't post, but I would like to add my support. What your dhs ex is doing is awful. Please dont blame your dsd, she is a pawn who is being manipulated by her mother. The likelyhood is her mum bought 'your' present and told her to give it to you.

I think its a waiting game tbh. Your dh cant 'back down'(what an awful term- this shouldnt be a fight) as you said previously, it sends the wrong mesage to your dsd and will just enforce the fact that her parents are playing games around her (I realise not willfully on your dhs part). For the same reason dont talk to your dsd- then you are putting her in the same poition that her mum is- she should not be in a position of 'control' or 'responsibility'. She is a child and shouldnt be involved.

Good luck

Thanks- he's just called to say that DSD and her mum have agreed he can see her today but she is not o stay at ours over night.

The mad thing is that even if she stays for 1 night a week at ours (which surely she'll have to want to do!) that will decrease the amount 1/7th of what it was... then there is the extra cost of doing all the school runs and also feeding her for the extra 3/4 nights. Plus having to buy all her clothes and all her entertainment... That will eat up all the extra money anyway.

DH has contacted fathers for justice today and will contact families need fathers tonight when they open. FFJ have said he has a case as it appears DSD is being used as a pawn. he has emails detailing the previous contact arrangement and he has texts from her explaining that if he doesnt pay then he won't see his DD so i think he does have a very good case.

However what i havent said to him is that as DSD is a teenager I think they will just refer to her and go with her choice - which at the moment is to agree with her mum.

So now he has the weight on his shoulders that he's going to make her choose... who wants to put a kid in that position.

I can trust his sister, I'll talk to her.

Other than support - no one can help him - courts, solicitors, etc, waste of time - all the decisions rest with DSD.

Believe me, there is no stone DH has left unturned (and dsd wants to come), at this age they are expected to be able to decide for themselves.

Banging head against a brick wall springs to mind.

I guess I knew that I'll let DH find out for himself to an extent though - I think it's important for him to know he has fought for her.

I seriously can't beleive there are so many kids out there who long for a relationship with their dad, and so many RPs that long for ther ex's to care about their kids.. and here is a really good dad, wanting to do the best for his child. And he's been reduced to nothing but a "McDonald's Dad" all because his ex feels she is entitled to do bugger all and have everyone else support her and her child.

I have realised there is no point directing any anger to the ex though. Or talking to her about it. She has obviously been able to tell herself something to excuse all this behaviour and I dont think I'm going to change her mind over a coffee and a chelsea bun.

I guess it all lies in his DD seeing sense on her own. Maybe when the baby comes along she'll want to get out of the madhouse and so I'll make sure she knows our door is always open to her.

BOM - I went through exactly what you are going through now about a year ago - after 18 months of DSD (then 12) being exposed to her mums bitterness and anger after the marriage failed - totally inappropriate information was shared with her by both her parents and eventually, the court placed residency of both DSC with mum and issued a recital requiring DP and his ex to facilitate contact at set times 'subject to DSD specific wishes'.

DSD opted out almost straight away - DP was devestated Money is one of the reasons that for DSD doesn't see DP - her mum uses the CSA to collect payment (DP was happy to pay direct, but ExW refused) and her payments go up if DSD doesn't spend the night here. DSD was also 'alienated' by her mum who was txting and calling her mobile constantly when she was with him, crying that she missed DSC, and that she wished that they were with her, not at their Dads.
DSS had counselling earlier this year because he revealed that 'it upset him when his mum and sister were mean about NADM'; we've not got to the bottom of that and are awaiting a CAHMS referral for him

I was lucky enough to meet Karen and Nick Woodall from The Centre for Separated Families earlier this year - Karen made me feel so much better by sharing her own, similar story, with me. Her personal and professional advice was to give DSD space, allow DH to maintain a relationship with his daughter to some extent (my DP writes to DSD regularly) and be there for him without getting involved - and yes, I know how hard that is! Maintaining parenting is really important to - I know that my DP is tempted to overlook disrespect from DSS (rude texts demanding the return of belongings for instance) in order to have some contact - but he has remained her parent and made it clear that he expects a certain standard of behaviour from her.

Karen also said that in most cases, the teen is reunited with the NRP in the future, although it could be some years down the line.
We're not hopeful of that in our case; DSD mum was estranged from her own father at about the same age and she (exW) sees no value in that relationship; she is teaching DSD the same

I really feel for you - if you can, try and get some counselling for just you as well as you and DH together from someone who is familiar with these situations.

A final thought - to any RP who says 'it's up to DC if they see their NRP or not' , i would ask, does the child have the same choice as to whether or not they go to school?

Thanks *NADM8 I think that is at the bottom of it all. DH's ex's dad was a drunk and she was estranged from him at a young age. He then went on to die young and she was left with her mother and the man her Mum married who was cruel and unkind.
Her mother died whe she was a teenager and her step dad remarried a cruel "stepmother". She had a bad example and put her real mother on a pedastal thinking that any relationship that followed hers and her mothers was pointless and damaging.

I may only be an amature psychologist but it doesnt really take a professional to put 2 and 2 together here.

How would I get intough with karen and Nick?

Cant remember how to do a linkie thing - but this is their website www.separatedfamilies.info/

DP has done the full 'Putting Children First' programme, and ive done a few workshops - really helpful, and despite DPs exW refusal to even consider the course (and her inappropriate behaviour) DP learnt things on the course that helped change the nature of the interactions between them

NADM I remember your posts about those courses from before, do you think they would help re a 16 year old and where there is no parental interaction at all?

MJ they may well do - the idea is that both parents attends the course, in parallel so they are not in the same group but attend during the same weeks, iyswim? My DP went on Saturday mornings and the parallel course for the "other parent" was in the afternoon of the same day.

DP's exW didn't go, of course, but even so, it did help DP look at things from an alternative perspective and gave him some techniques and phrases to use to avoid, or deal with, conflict. We've both used things we learnt with our respective ex's - mine is just as unreasonable and wouldn't consider the course because its aim is to leave emotion out of the interactions - whereas he wants every interaction with me to be laden with emotion; anything less is an insult to DD

The course is quite intense; it looks at WHY parents behave in the way the do - uses the change curve and other self-examination techniques - which are quite painful for some (one lady on a workshop I was on ran out in tears). In that regard it is quite useful for other aspects of life, too, though.

I would say if there is a need for contact between the parents to take place, then it certainly can't hurt for one, or both, to have done the sessions in order to increase the chance of it being successful

NADM, very useful info and something we might look at.

BOM, Oh I really hoped the ex had softened, I also wonder if the pregnancy is playing some part in this. When DH's ex had a new baby she felt it was essential that DSS bonded with the baby and so restricted DH's access. Anytime DSS was with us she would call and say the baby really misses you and wants to say hello!! DSS who was only 7 at the time, was upset by it and and would tell the ex to stop but it had no impact.

I am however highly cynical about the 'no overnights' rule since that does drive higher payments to her. I can imagine how hurtful this is for your DH - to be treated as a cash machine and now discarded.

In our situation access is according to the ex's social life and we even had extra time at Xmas as her and her latest b/f wanted to have a childfree christmas..a few years ago it was a battle to have time so as her life has changed (end of yet another marriage and new b/f) so has the contact schedule. The same will happen for you - her circumstances will alter and she will realise that maybe having your DH around isn't such a bad idea.

Sadly toxic mothers do exist and your DSD will be emotionally damaged by her mum's actions but you can't change or influence her mum's behaviour. I'm glad your DH has sought support in fathers groups..the more that these situations are discussed the more society will finally realise that not all dads are bad guys.

So we're now at a slate mate - We can have DSD for 3 nights over a 2 week period if DH agrees to do all the driving and buy all schools shoes and uniform and also continues to pay pocket money, mobikle phone, laptop and dentistry.

Or we can have her 1 night a week only if he pays for.pocket money, mobile phone, laptop and dentistry.

If he doesnt pay any of the above and only the CSA amount then we don't see her at all. In her words "we don't have a deal"

Ooh lucky him, what a choice - so guys what would you go for option 1, 2 or 3????

What a fucking joke.

How the actual fuck in god's name does she think it's acceptable to use their daughter in order to achieve a deal?!!!!!

I also feel like I'm greiving for her. I walk past her room and go and sit on her bed hugging her teddy like she's died!

God knows how DD will feel when I break it to her.

DHs family are coming on Sunday and mine on Saturday there will be a DSD shaped hole.

BOM - I suggest your DH finds a good family solicitor and takes up the half- hour free consult and maybe a letter written - such blatant behaviour on his exW behalf will not be defendable by anyone she gets to represent her.
Either DSD wants to see her dad or not; linking it to money/provision removes the child-led approach and will get short shrift by any lawyer - and if DSD mum has been stupid enough to put it in writing it will go a long way to support an application for a CO not withstanding DSD age.

(personally, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when DSD mum tells a solicitor what she's done!)

So sorry you're feeling so down - especially at Christmas
I hadn't really bonded with DSD when she opted out, but if/when DSS mum withholds contact with him, I know I'll feel bereft