I become invisible during access visits

[cobbledtogether]

I have a step daughter, who is lovely and we get on fine.

My problem is that I just can't work out what happens to my DH when she's visiting. Its like I become invisible and my feelings mean nothing.

Earlier today I came downstairs to find that they had both gone out. Nothing had been mentioned about going out, they'd just gone. I had no idea where to or how long. At first I thought they'd gone to the shop, but after an hour they'd not come back, so I texted to ask how long they'd be so I could make plans - no reply.

I waited for about another 30 mins then text again. No reply, but they came back about 15 mins after that. As soon as SD was out of earshot, I got an earful about texting and chasing them up as he was allowed to spend time without me there.

This really annoyed me as of course he is and I don't interfere in their time, but I thought it was fair enough on a Saturday to want to know if they were going to be out all day and also thought it was reasonable for him to mention that they were going out in the first place.

This isn't the first time this has happened and its really beginning to piss me off.

I could possibly understand his actions if SD and I didn't get on, but we actually like each other and spend time alone when DH is at work quite happily.

He says I need to understand that her visits are their time. I say that's fine, but it shouldn't stop him from at least letting me know if they are off out somewhere.

I'm beginning to wonder if it is me

I wonder from your posts Colditz whether your OH has ever taken the step-children out without telling you that he was going? From your posts you say that would be acceptable, so I wondered if it had actually happened to you.

I have children too and on the weekend the children are the focal point for us as well as we both work full time during the week. However I don't see how that translates into it being reasonable for him to disappear without saying where he is going or how long he may be out for with the visiting child.

As one of the PPs said - a simple 'Off out now, ta ra' would do.

The children coming first does not mean that the adults can behave badly to each other IMO.

Colditz ? you say ?I had always assumed that grown women in relationships with fathers already knew that the children came first ? naive maybe.?

Which sounds quite antagonistic. Speaking as a grown woman in a relationship with a father, I realise how important his son is, but I also expect sane, courteous behaviour regardless of whether SS is with us or not. Too many fathers seem to think, that just because their child is visiting, that normal standards of rational thought, respectful behaviour and day-to-day living can go out of the window.

The OP experiences very bad manners from her husband when his daughter is visiting, and I sometimes experience quite bizarre behaviour from my husband (please read the ?spending a penny? thread) on access weekends.

Colditz, I think you?re actually missing the point. Very few of us are complaining about our step children, just the way our ?men-folk? behave when they?re around. Suda came up with a fab phrase ?lioness with cub.? Think of a female lion, prowling around the jungle, growling at anyone who comes near her offspring, and you?ve pretty much got the picture. And the ?cub? in Suda?s house is 23 ? not a nice thought, is it ??????

yes of course he has, and yes of course I find it accptable. I amuse myself quite easily. So he didn't say goodbye - it's THURSDAY now and you're still cross about this?

Lionesses are growly and protective because they are that cub's parent.... and they are behaving in an natural way. If the father (ie parent!) has the average fortnightly access, he doesn't see his child for 12 days at a time. It is not weird or unnatural or 'bratty' to want to spend that time togetehr. it's not selfish to want to prioritise the precious child you never get to see!

So far as "brats" are concerned, I think it's fair to say that all children can be brats to a greater or lesser degree - it comes with the territory. Being a stepchild doesn't preclude you from being a brat - and it doesn't take much imagination to see that children whose parent(s) fail to set boundaries and/or fail to discipline them are far more likely to display brattish behaviour ..... which is exactly what often happens when you get this "Disney Dad" attitude.

Quite obviously - most parents would bristle at the thought of their children being called brats - if it was said purely out of spite, and without any justification, but on occasion, I can easily see why a (often disempowered) step parent might think of their skids like this.

FWIW, I have called my own children brats to their faces - I don't think they've been traumatised for life, because, at the time, they would have been behaving like utter brats and needed to be told. They don't like the word (who does ?) but that's half the point of saying it - to impress upon them that their behaviour is petulant and unacceptable, and that if they persist, there will be an unpleasant telling off as a rfesult. I've also clocked my skids being brats - and have discussed this with my DP (so nothing underhand about it) and he has agreed with that assessment. I haven't said it to their faces however, for political reasons, because their mother always seizes the most flimsy of excuses to have a go and no doubt "brat" would cause her to go nuclear - and I don't want to deal with the fallout (cancelled contact, more alienation etc). I know that's cowardly, but if I were in her shoes you see, and my son's stepmum called him a brat, whilst I wouldn't be happy about it (because my protective parental instinct would kick in), my first reaction would be to ask why she called him that and try to get to the bottom of the situation. In other words, I'd firstly be more concerned about what could have led to this, rather than the "insult" to my son IYSWIM.

The point is that when you get dads who are scared of their own kids, the kids will pick up on this and will usually take full advantage. This obviously applies whether the children live with you or not, but in practice dads who fail to discipline are more likely to live apart from their kids - hence the fear that if they are "upset" in any way, contact will be adversely affected. Crucially, this game doesn't work if both parents really do play fair and don't use the kids as weapons to get their own back on their ex - because the children would soon find out that even if they refused to see their dad simply because they got a well deserved telling off, their mum would see to it that they still went regardless. Unfortunately though, if a man has an unreasonable ex who undermines his attempts at discipline and supports the children in their "I won't see you if you tell me off" attitude, then the man is placed in a very difficult position. Hence, you get a fair number of dads who are quite literally petrified of discipline who have created brats ..... and it's small wonder then, that some stepmums sound off about it on forums like this one.

I appreciate of course that the adults (the mum and dad) must shoulder a very large proportion of the blame in situations like the one described but as kids get older, it's also very hard not to feel that they too should accept at least some responsibility for the way they behave - irrespective of the mess their parents have made through point-scoring, opposing rules and lack of co-operation. After all, you don't learn everything from your parents ... and just because you can get away with something (because, say, your dad is scared of you and your mum is keeping out of it because anything that upsets her ex is fine by her - even if the same behaviour wouldn't be tolerated towards anyone else) - it doesn't make it right to do it does it ?

When a child is behaving like a brat, the brat comment is fair. But when children are being referred to as brats because you don't like the way their father behaves when they visit - that's spite.

I got the impression from the OP that she isn't peed off about a one-off example of thoughtlessness, but about a regular display of bad manners and a lack of respect towards her whenever her SD visits. Thursday or not she's not being at all unreasonable to "still" be upset about it - last weekend's incident seems symptomatic of a larger, established problem.

It IS incredibly rude to disappear without a word to your partner/spouse ..... I've seen loads of threads here (in AIBU for example) about men who do just that, and who also go incommunicado at the same time - and the general concensus is usually that it's damn rude. Having a child with you does NOT excuse him from manners and respect. The OP's complaint isn't the one on one time, but the way in which it's accomplished. Why the hell can't he discuss it with her ? .... she may have had plans/ideas of her own that his absence could affect, she may just have wanted to know what time they'd be back for dinner (which she'd invariably be cooking).

but that's easy - just don't cook dinner! cook for yourself and don't bother for the people who left without letting you know when they would be back! And how can someone else's absence affect your plans? Just go and do something. Or go to bed. Or read a book.

I don't know why people are assuming I speak from a point of ignorance here ... this is what I do if someone goes out without saying what time they will be back. I assume that as they didn't feel the need to include me, I'm not included, and am completely free to amuse myself. I don't feel the need to demand information and inclusion in someything that isn't, at that time, requiring me.

Am going to start a new thread as am going off at a tangent and don't want to hijack this!

Colditz ? again, you miss the point. It wasn?t just that the OP?s husband failed to tell her what time he was coming back, the bigger issue is that he failed to tell her he was going out in the first place !!!!!!

So assuming this was a Saturday or Sunday, the OP would have been left in limbo, not knowing if they?d be back in 5 mins or 5 hours ? which, IMO, is very unreasonable. I understand that this type of behaviour wouldn?t upset you, and that?s fine, cos we?re all different. But it?s clearly upset the OP, and most of the ladies who?ve replied would be equally upset if it happened to them.

But why does it matter%?

Seriously, you cannot all be so totally reliant on your partners for entertainment and guidance to the point where if he goes out without telling you, you're in limbo???

I haven't missed the point, I totally understand that the OP has become freaked out because her partner left the house without telling her, I just cannot work out why she's upset by it at all, let alone 4 days later.

"I haven't missed the point, I totally understand that the OP has become freaked out because her partner left the house without telling her, I just cannot work out why she's upset by it at all, let alone 4 days later."

Because the OP has said, she has child/ren too, and works during the week so ALL the children are the focus on the weekend as it is their only free time together, and she wanted to "make plans" - presumably with the other child/ren of the family too, (not just DH's children), and had no idea whether she could plan family activities or not, as she had no idea where her DH was, or when he would be back.

OP has child/ren too, who are equally important, and who need to spend time with their family as well. OP has the right to know what is happening with her family on the weekend.

Catsmother, your posts are excellent.

Oh I think the DH is totally out of order.

I hate any children being referred to as brats, it's just horrible and shouldn't be done.

But there's no suggestion here that the OP is unreasonable. If it were her dd and he and dd were going out, you'd expect him to yell up the stairs: "just popping out for a couple of hours, we'll be back at lunchtime/ in an hour/ when we're back".

I don't think this is a case of her trying to control his time with his dd or not respecting that that time is the priority on contact visits. Just that she has the right to an acknowledgement that she's part of his and the SD's life. I really don't think that's a tall order.

Anyway he sounds like an arse. The telephone thing would have had me reassessing whether I wanted to be with him tbh.

I think I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't take the children, bio or step, out without being courteous enough to tell him as I think its impolite. Becasue I think it is impolite and don't do it myself, I don't appreciate it when he does it.

You don't believe its impolite and don't mind when it happens to you. Lets agree to disagree.

It doesn't affect the relationship I have with my DSD. I still enjoy her company, help her with her homework, entertain her, feed her - making sure I have in food I know she likes, include her in whatever I am doing when OH isn't around, take care of her, comfort her when shes upset, listen to her talk about anything she likes, be proud of her achievements and all of the other things that go with being a parent of any kind.

It just means I think my OH acts like a cock.

I can't see where in my original post I said that I was in limbo or unable to think of anything else to do while he was out. I have other children after all

COLDITZ - You say I never mentioned I am a s/mum to adult s/kids - Three posts ago I said :

"And as for these 'children,dependants' - we are not talking about little innocent toddlers - we are talking about older teenagers and in my case adult stepkids - huge difference - and you seriously dont think that teenagers/young adults cant ever be 'brats' - or even be referred to as such ".

As I also pointed out the OPs SD is in her teens - so we are talking on this thread more about the dynamics of a s/mum , older SD (in her teens at least) and a natural fathers behaviour in this family set of circumstances.

So are people who only fit the bill exactly matching the OPs situation allowed an opinion - so exclude yourself COLDITZ - you have much younger children and s/children than the OP.

Sounds like you also have a problem with me posting on a step-parenting forum at all. I have step-parenting issues which unfortunately do not disappear as soon as the s/child hits 18 - especially when that 'child' still lives with you at 23. I have given and received an awful lot of feedback to and from s/parents on many threads on the s/parenting forum. Thought that was the idea of Mumsnet .

So to summarise - you know that everyones DH on here including mine loves their children more than they love us wives/partners.
You know that if they tell us different they are lying to us.
Even if you had known were older I am sure you would still hold this belief and force feed it as 'fact' according to 'the gospel of St Colditz - patron saint of all Stepchildren.

You also know why my DH in particular loves his children more than me ( he doesnt btw people - read my long post on page 2 ). Its because of my attitude apparently he's scared to tell me the truth.

You 'know' for a 'fact' every poster on here who thinks their DH is out of order to not shout Ta-ra when leaving the family home with his offspring - is behaving like a spoiled child being left out of a game.
Hang on a minute isnt that what a lot of people would call a brat ? Oh I see - you are allowed to say stuff like that - the rest of us arent - even in a tongue-in- cheek crossed out way.

But you are allowed to call us sulky - selfish - no lives of our own - and our husbands/partners have a poor second rate love for us at best - and if they tell us any different - they are lying to us and its our own fault as they darent tell us the truth.

Ive asked you this before and I'll ask you again - WHERES YOUR OFFICE THEN ??

From my post on page 2 as referred to above. No disrespect Colditz but this is my husbands view according to my husband (theres a novel idea ). I share the same views btw (at least I think I do unless of course someone knows better).

" My DH believes real love is immeasurable. The people he really loves he could not love any more. For example he would tell you he loves his DGD - the apple of his eye - every bit as much as his grown up sons - it is a more 'full on' love at the moment as she is a small child - dependant and needy not to mention adorable. His boys are 6ft plus hairy males so his love for them has evolved from that stage - but not diminished in any way, not one iota.

My DH loves me - infinitely - I am - to quote him - "the love of his life". He believes real love cannot be watered down - his love for me does not dilute his love for his children or vice versa and his love for me while 'different' than for his children is just as strong."

Err ? Straying from the point. The point was, was the lady being unreasonable for just simply wanting to be informed they were going out. She does not mind, would just like to know so she can make plans. She is not invisible. My partner and I both have children and I would never just walk out the house with the children and not say anything and retrun whenever. Nor would he. x

Suda, please stop being so aggressive. I don't even KNOW you, and I don't give a fig when, where or how you post. Stop accusing me of not wanting you to post because I'm genuinely not that interested.

Using hyperbole to make a point makes no point at all, by the way, but top marks for a jolly good effort!

COLDITZ ( Patron Saint of all Stepchildren)

I think Sudas posts are excellent - the last one especially - and she is absolutely right - your posts on this thread have been opinionated,defensive and antagonistic. I think with respect it needed to be said.
I think another poster or posters on here have pointed this out to you. You will probably start on me now but hey-ho at least it will deflect your relentless attacks from Suda. I know who I would rather be stuck in a lift with !

Anyway as the last poster pointed out this is all going off the point. So OP I think in any domestic set-up it is normal manners etiquette etc to at least say hello and goodbye. Its up there in my opinion with please and thank you.

Whichever poster said that it doesnt matter and that people who think it does should get a life (in so many words) on here ??
Well if that person went for a job interview and they got up after the last question and walked out without saying a word - would they expect to get the job ??
Yet its ok to come and go without a word to your loved ones ??

It is just basic courtesy. Also I think the OPs husband is being 'clan-ish' in his behaviour and as someone else said is making an 'us and them' atmosphere.

I don't attack people. I attack their behavior, and I attack their opinions (with opinions of my own) but I don't attack people.

And as for The Patron Saint Of All Step Children (or should that be 'stepbrats'?) - judging by some of the opinions on this thread, it's a pity there isn't one.

The job interview analogy doesn't stand against a domestic situation. You don't turn up at a job interview in your pyjamas, you don't ask the person interviewing you to put the bins out for you, you are, in essense, cap in hand, asking them for work and therefore money. You are not (or should not be) under this level of scrutiny in your own home.

Ahhhh you could try raising prayers to St Monica, Patron Saint of difficult marriages and disappointing children.

I hadn't realised this thread had started a while back, but tbh I would be bloody furious if dh just buggered off with our dd or ds (neither step!) without telling me he was off out.

As a child, unless in a teenage rage, I would never have left the house without saying goodbye, and definitely wouldn't as an adult.

I even say see ya later to the builders and give them a vague idea of when I might be back as to whether or not they will lock up the house.

OP I believe your dh is out of order for not saying see ya later and for berating you about trying to find out when they are back (although less for this, but all he had to do is text will be back later - carry on as you wish).

I question whether any of us would find this acceptable if there was no dsd involved and your dh just buggered off without saying goodbye or telling you when he might be back.

Everyone would find that irritating beyond belief.

Spooky !

Dont know where you lot have gone - but am voting with my feet aswell.

Not saying goodbye either COLDITZ - and definitely not telling you where I'm going.