I'm tempted to post some hints for this SENCO...

[humblebum]

...here who wants some advice on how to deal with a 'difficult parent' and SALT who doesn't seem to know her place.

I'm sure some of the teachers/SENCOs used to think the same thing before DS was statemented!

sorry link again

I've tried to avoid this thread as my own experiences with son's teachers are still very very raw.

What shocked me about the thread the OP drew to our attention was the 2nd post on that thread

""If parents really want statutory assessment then tell them to contact Parent Partnership and find out how to initiate it. It will be a pain while it's being done but, once it's been turned down, at least it's one less thing to moan about.""

The assumption that the statutory assessment will be turned down.

Then, even worse is the 3rd post on that thread:

""If you think that a refusal to assess will be the outcome then why not just go with the SaLT and the Parents. If they get refused then thats job done they are out of your hair so expediate the process rather than expend time and energy disagreeing and attending meetings. ""

So, being refused a Statement is job done and the parents are out of your hair ???

That makes me absolutely livid.

I am sure there are good teachers out there but I didn't meet one during my son's time with un'dxd Asperegers during junior school who considered him to be a oppositional and challenging child who could and should stop being naughty or during his secondary school experiences where wilfull neglect of his by then obvious SENs caused a severe mental breakdown resulting in psychiatric care that continues to this day.

A tecaher who fails to identify, assess and support a child with SENs is just as culpable in my view as a GP who fails to diagnose a serious illness. But teachers do turn a blind eye to children with SENs because they do not want to upset their Head who in teurn does not want to upset his paymaster, the LEA. And the same goes for ed Pyschs who are also in the pay of the LEA. I also get very angry when people come on here having been told by their child's paed that he/she should have a Statement. It's about time that Paed's started to understand SEN policy and realise the hooops that parents have to jump through to secure a Statement =- often without the backing of those very same Paed's who, to satisfy their own NHS masters are not allowed to recommend certain (expensive) placements that the NHS may be required to provide bi-partite funding for.

The SEN policy in this country is rubbish - when you have the LA acting as gate-keeper and performing the role of judge (does the child have SENs) , jury (to what extent) and executioner (Oh dear we'll have to pay for additional help) - so let's ignore them and keep the council tax down.

I could rant on for hours over this one but teachers do collude. They write little notes to each other about their concerns and file them, while denying point blank to the parent (me) there is anything amiss. When I finally saw my son's file with these notes and descriptions of the hell they had forced to suffer daily while they ignored him - well words simply don't decsribe what I wanted to do to those bastards.

There used to be an SEN Discussion Board that I popped into from time to time until it became to depressing to do so. It was full of things like "I've just been made the SENCO. Can someone please tell me what the SENCOP is".

It would make you weep. And yes I hate teachers - I know I shouldn't but I do. Sorry.

I have been told that a child has to be 2 years behind to get a statement. When my child was assessed to be 2 years behind I was told 'it has changed to 3'.

A parent of a child in DS's class was told 'children cant be statemented until they are 9'

I have been told that the school cannot put in extra help for DS without a statement but they never applied for one - I had to do it. They told me they couldnt afford to give him help until he got a statement but as he was never going to a get a statement that attracted extra funding I found this confusing.

My DS has been on SA+ since reception. He is still 'working towards level 1' in year 2. He cannot read or write. He only has the most basic grasp of numeracy.

Since his EP assesment last year the school has done nothing to initiate change and since his dx of Auditory Processing Disorder last year they have made no changes or adaptations. They appear to be waiting to be forced to do so by the statement. Despite being able to make changes that cost nothing e.g. visual timetables.

I have had enough. I am polite. I am not demanding. The turning point was at DS's last IEP meeting (we are allocated 10 mins for these meetings). I was asked my opinions and I told the SENCO that I really did not feel that DS's needs were being met and I felt let down by the school. This is as 'strong' as I got. You wouldve thought I had called them all c**ts and threatened to fire bomb them! I was met with a wall of defense and blame shifting (on to me). I realised then that I could no longer keep my DS at the school.

Because they just didnt seem to want to help us. There has been no dispute that DS has significant difficulties and that he is very behind at school. His percentile scores are very very low. He has a clear dx of a condition that significantly impacts on his ability to learn.

I have writen to LEA today to ask for a transfer to special school. Something I never thought would be neccessary for a child with needs like my DS. He should be able to stay in mainstream but I just cannot leave him to fall further and further behind.

On paper his mainstream school looks great.

Sorry for rant but I feel the system has utterly let down my DS.

Sometimes being in a special school is the best thing for our children.. Particularly for Autism or Aspergers I believe a Specialist school is the best for our children.

With my child the school had not even referred her to the SENCO. When the LEA sent the request form for information about my daughter, The SENCO had to say that she had NO knowledge of my daughter, as she had had no contact with her at all.

Wetaugust

Oh, you hate all teachers? Including me? Who you've never met? Who slogs her guts out for all SN kids - my own and the ones I teach? Thanks nothing like shite generalisations, hey. Fuck this. Criticisms of specific teachers I can take, understand and empathise with. But your comments just make me feel sad, angry and totally unwelcome on this board. Thanks a lot.

givememore I certainly do not hate all teachers. I have been really suprised at the attitudes I have met with whilst at DS's school. I thought that his teacher would welcome the extra resources. How on earth could he be expected to cope with DS's needs with only him and one TA in the classroom?

I was really shocked when he was defensive with me. I had never criticised him.

I have found the whole thing confusing and very stressful. I dont like to be thought of as being difficult or pushy. I dont want teachers to think I am against them or think they are rubbish.

chegirl, have you looked at other MS schools in the area? Just in case one may be more accommodating to your ds and his needs.

I moved ds just under a year ago when his then primary school labelled him lazy (teacher and SENCo) rather than considering he may have learning difficulties, I suspect because a) he could verbally do the work and b) he was not a distraction in the classroom, he would just sit and do nothing. Within a term (so from Easter to Summer hols) ds settled into his new school, was internally assessed then assessed by the learning support advisory teacher who confirmed he did have difficulties, set in place a list of targets and support that would help ds in the classroom and referred him to OT (first appt next week ) and the LSAT suspected ds had dyspraxia - this has since been confirmed by a paediatrician. Although still having major issues with his writing the school have been absolutely fantastic, and the total opposite of his old school.

So it may be that a different Ms school could be right for your ds, even if this one isnt.

Best of luck with whatever you do.

Giveme....you know that emotions run high on these issues. I'm sure WetAusgust didn't mean she hates each and every single teacher - but she probably hates the ones she's met so far and that is desperately sad.

WetAugust posts such good advice here as do you.

Giveme ..your posts are always helpful and insightful as you see both sides.

It is hard, really hard, to always feel like you're the one trying to keep everyone on baord, be supportive and encouraging and not critical, while ensuring that your child's needs are met. You are frequently treated as persona non grata and this turns your world upside down as you see other parents happy with a school you once trusted - until the extent of your child's problems became apparent.

So, SENCO posts like that were bound to be inflammatory.

I'm relatively new to this but I have been thoroughly let down by teachers thus far - lied to for the sake of their professional pride.

However, I have three close friends who are senior teachers in other areas and I know they would NEVER treat a child or their parents they way we have been treated. They care deeply about the children they teach and would want to learn about the issues and help and support where they can.

So I do know there are good and bad around as there are in all professions.

There needs to be better training, more money, more accountability and an independent SEN process which focuses on need and not money

Please, let's not fall out on this board guys. You've both helped me so much with your posts xx

I'm sorry to say it but yes givememmoresleep I do hate teachers after my experiences with them - I can't change that. I have been blatently lied to by teachers. I have been treated as an over-concerned idiot while son's mental health declined at the abuse he suffered at their hands. I'm hardly likley to think it's a wonderful occupation after that - am I? I now avoid teacher whenever i come across them i.e. on holiday, socially etc because in my twisted mind they belong to a profession that failed my son and the effects of that will be life-long. How can the dozen or so teachers that taught him on a daily basis during his secondary education have written home reports stating how well he w was doing while scribblimg notes to each other which I have seen that read "I don't know how to deal with him" or he "he is being systematically bullied" and "the parents have not been told" while lying to me and attempting to get me to believe that everything was Ok and it was all "just perceived". Why didn't one of these bloody 'professionals' break ranks and tell the truth?

I don't trust them to act in the best interests of the child and for that they have lost any respect I ever had for them. i do have utmost respect for the FE College lecturers that had to pick up the pieces and who tutored, mentored and displayed amazing amounts of patience with a child the LA and school had 'written off'. I have the same for his University lecturers. Both those groups of people fully supported his SENs and the financial means to do so were provided under national funding from the L&SC and by DSA - where although the LA pick up the tab the assessment was independant (unlike Statement funding). My conclusion is therefore that schools are dictated to and teachers are cowed by the funding body for SEN support - the LA.

But I would like to know -

Have you or any of your teacher colleagues ever worked in a school where statementing was discouraged by the managment / LA?
There seem to be a lot of these schools about but I've never yet met a teacher who has worked in such an establishment. Strange that.

As a teacher, how much sway does the Head / LA have in determining whether a child is referred for possible statutory assessment - is it a decision made solely on academic / pastoral grounds or is there a hidden / tacit agreement that the school will not trouble the LA?

I know where I work there are certain unspoken boundaries that must not be crossed. Is it the same in education?

I'll quite understand if you chose not to answer as you're quite right, I have never met you and you probably are a very nice person but I loathe your profession for the damage it needlessly caused to my son.

givememoresleep I'm on here primarily as a parent, but in my other life I was not just a teacher, but a Special Needs teacher. Proper enemy.

I will say that I am overwhelmed by the professional support I have had for my (mildly affected with possible ASD or something) DS1. He's had SALT, is getting OT, has been at SA+ since day one in the education system. I haven't had to fight, at least not since he turned 3 and was "allowed" to be considered speech delayed. If anything, I am dragging my heels as I think he just needs more time (I know he won't grow out of it, but he might grow into some coping strategies!)

My experience as a teacher was quite different. We never kept a SALT longer than a year, so they would start, spend 5 months building up a case load and assessing, about 3 months being useful, then leave. Same for the OTs. Physios were better - but we had them for 3 hours a week for 64 kids. Not enough. Social workers mainly noticable for their absence, other bodies rarely turning up for reviews unless it was a very "pushy parent" threatening legal action or similar. I attended one Annual Review where it was just me, the child and the head teacher. No parents or professionals.

Teachers are not trained in SN, not at all on my course. Not even an hour. I was disgusted and said so - I wanted to work in SN, and had no intention of doing boring old mainstream! In my last year at my last school, I was being loaned out to mainstream primaries in an advisory role. Some of the teachers were at the end of their tether trying to cope with a child with SN as well as the several with EBD and the summer borns, and the usual kid stuff, unsupported in any way. As teachers, we are supposed to be in charge. We are supposed to know what we are doing. And we are very used to being attacked by parents of all kinds of children for all kinds of reasons - defensiveness is pretty understandable IMO.

LRB I really dont feel I can take the chance TBH. Change is very difficult for DS and the thought of moving him to another MS and perhaps having to move him on again worries me.

I feel the SNS I have looked at is far more integrated and inclusive than your average MS school. There are children there with very differing abilities and needs but they are edcuated together at a level that suits them individually.

My DS sounds like yours in that he doesnt give any trouble. He just zones out and keeps quiet.

I applied to transfer him to anothe rMS school a while ago but as his statement has progressed its becoming clear that his needs are such that we really to try SNS for at least the rest of primary.

I am glad to hear your DS is doing well in his new school

Have you or any of your teacher colleagues ever worked in a school where statementing was discouraged by the managment / LA?
There seem to be a lot of these schools about but I've never yet met a teacher who has worked in such an establishment. Strange that. The LEA I am dealing with at the moment (as a parent and part of a community committee) has a huge financial deficit, and as always SN takes a hit. They are refusing to provide more than 1 TA per classroom regardless of number of statements AFAIK.

As a teacher, how much sway does the Head / LA have in determining whether a child is referred for possible statutory assessment - is it a decision made solely on academic / pastoral grounds or is there a hidden / tacit agreement that the school will not trouble the LA? I was always troubling the LA. . But each case was taken on merit, my HT spent a great deal of time at Tribunals, but she would appear on either side depending on the case.

I know where I work there are certain unspoken boundaries that must not be crossed. Is it the same in education? - I would have thought so. Like, you don't lock children in the cupboard, and if you see it happening (and I have) you kick up a godawful stink.

Like any profession, there are good and bad practioners. And it is very, very difficult to get rid of a bad teacher, pretty much the same in any civil service areas.

Thanks BigWeeHag for shedding some light on this for me.

What I really don't understand is why the teachers collude in this. What's the worst that could happen if a Head submitted a request for statutory assessment for evey one of his pupils who really needed it?

Would the LA find a way to limit his careeer / discredit him / force him out etc?

Would that approach work if he had the full support of his teaching staff? I.e. the teachers told the parents the truth - your child has SENs support for which should be delivered via a Statement however we cannot ask for one because if we did so the LA would exact their revenge? Wouldn't this create a local political scandal? Or are there too few affected children for this to be worthwhile?

Your post mentioning that the Head appeared on both sides at Tribunal was interesting. Wasn't that a career-limiting decsion for him?

Money and budgets is of crucial concern for the local authority.

It seems to me that, for many schools and for many LAs, the money is of more concern to them than the child.

Bigweehag...I do have sympathy for teachers who don't know it all or haven't had the training and have workloads etc etc. However, I wish they would just be open about this. I have been told by my SENco that he was secure in his ASD knowledge as he had worked in a special school. Yet, he patently doesn't understand the basics and I have had to sit in excurciating meetings with him, the teacher and outside agencies while they spelt out to him what the school should do.

The response? The school do it, but begrudgingly, turning their frustration on to the parent for putting them in that position.

Somewhere along the way, in their irritation at me - a pushy parent who is a lawyer - they have lost sight of my child. No one ever asks how his appointments go or if he's ok. They see every event as another intrusion and from posts on this board, my experience is sadly far from unique.

So I am made to feel like I am 'bullying' poor adult professionals by asking questions about provision that no one wants to answer.

I didn't want or ask for them to be so defensive. But trust is so easily lost when there is no openness.

No, not at all. She was at Tribunals as an expert witness, as Head of a school for children with PMLD/ complex needs. Sometimes she took the LEA's side (when they were in the right) and sometimes the parents.

Not every child needs an SA. My DS1 doesn't, yet I have been encouraged by people to seek one to make sure his support is written down. It doesn't need to be, not at the moment anyway.

My friend is a Music THerapist. We had a child who had Music Therapy on her statement. Partly this was due to both parents and LEA misunderstanding what Music Therapy is for - it's not just about children who enjoy music. Anyway, the MT stated at the AR that she did not want it on the statement as she would provide the therapy while it was neccessary and useful, and when it no longer was she would stop. This would then have put the school in breach of the Statement, but the MT would be doing her job. Same goes for OT, SALT - they shouldn't need to be compelled to give the treatment kids need.

DS1 was in a group for SALT. He is now the only one left, the rest dropped out after 3 weeks or so. SALT says that is not uncommon, not at all. I trust her judgement, and when she tells me that DS1 is able to be discharged and monitored, I will be happy to go with that. I appreciate not everyone has this level of trust with their professionals, and I know I am lucky in that I knew many of them in my other life before! But we should be able to trust these people to help us to the best of their ability.

What I have seen on occasion - and not that rarely - is what you might almost call bed blocking (sorry, but it does happen.) Kids who are taking up time that could be more usefully used with another child, often because a parent or mainstream teacher has misunderstood the nature of some kind of therapy or service. It is the ones that shout the loudest that seem to get the most help, so then everyone thinks they need a written document that legally compels services that may not actually be necessary. I don't know if I'm explaining very well. Basically, the breakdown of trust means that some people are getting innappropriate treatments because they are getting the wrong ones, or not enough, others are getting more than they strictly need, professionals are over-stretched and vastly over-paperworked and nobody seems to bring it all together in a coherent way.

I don't know when it happened, but I do know I have been working in the field for coming up for 20 years and very little has changed. I have no answers, I'm afraid, but I am very sad about the lack of trust and communication between the "sides."

I think you summed it up there Debbs - trust.

We trust teachers to provide the best outcome they can for our children. They betray that trust by lying to us about the art of the possible i.e. "we don't do Statements" or "there is no money for Statements" or some other excuse that they've made up.

Is it ignorance or conspiracy that makes them utter these lies?

They positively hate it when you are able to argue with them having had the benfit of actually discovering that there is such a thing as the SEN COP and you woudl like a bit of that guidance applied in your child's case.

And why isn't the SEN COP issued automatically to every parent whose child is at SA? Why is it something that we stumble across via boards like this?

It was the only effective tool I ever found for getting the full attention of the education Authority - when I turned up for meetings and immediately fished my well-thumbed copy from my bag.

That was the only time that I experienced honesty from them - when i had the evidence to dispute their lies.

BigWeeHag

We cross posted while I was answering Debs so it was hugely amazing to see that you too think it's a a trust issue.

I agree that SALT and the support of other external agancies can be a transient need or a need that is not continual. However the only way to ensure these sevices are delivered is to write them into a Statement - trust again.

You made an interesting point about the 'bed-blockers'. I experienced that. Vast amounts of resource would be poured into behaviourial support, which frequently failed and led to eventual exclusion only for that same child to reappear back in school in a later year when presumably the placement they had been sent to had also excluded them. In the meantime the children that really could have benefitted from additional support were overlooked and left to fend for themselves until they broke down.

To my shame, I was one of those parents who eeventually did use their knowledge to play the system to ensure that at post-16 he did get his needs addressed. I can remember having a conversation about this with the Connexions advisor when we were photocopying a mountain of docments to secure funding for an independant post-16 placement and he told me that many of his clients did not have parnets who were able to secure similar support for their children. Which is probably why i still come on boards like this and try to help those who find themselves in the situation i was oonce in.

It's all a post code lottery. It will only change when independant assesors are brought in and the LAs monopoly on SEN identification / assessmnet and funding support is finally broken. But that will never happen as the costs incurred by the LA would be astronomical. But I do think that assertive parents are starting to make things happen. in my area a new autistic base has opened and reading the LA's minutes they commissioned this facility because they were losing so many ASD cases at SENDIST. That's how it will imprve - bit by bit , case by case and a realisation that treatment is less costing than denial.

community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/102312.aspx

There are a few positive posts in this topic linked but it also does little for parental confidence or trust.

thanks for giving your POV from the other side of the fence BigWeeHag. I do suspect though that your experience of early intervention isn't typical of those on this board with kids with language delay/?asd, a number of whom don't seem to see hide nor hair of an OT.

I fully accept that the parents getting good early intervention are probably less likely to post, as people are more likely to post if there are problems than if they are satisfied.

IME - once my DS reached 3, we had a 9 month wait for SALT and a 13 month wait for a paed appointment, with no support during that time other than what I arranged myself via Surestart (course and toddler group). This wait and lack of help with looking for school places quite frankly destroyed much of my trust in the local pre-school system for SN.

AARRGGHH!! I wrote a massive long post, then lost connection and lost it! I'll try again, but possibly more briefly (if I can!)

1. Waiting for support - the waiting times for some services in my area (SALT being the first that pops to mind) is at least 2.5 YEARS from referral. For the enuresis clinic, my DD was referred when she was 4yo. She is now 12yo, and whilst she is at the top of the waiting list, the waiting list is nothing but arbitary in my area as the PCT have closed down the enuresis clinic, with no timescale on when OR if we will get one, just a written 'reassurance' that if or when the clinic is restarted, my DD will be given the first available appointment. That is currently an 8 YEAR wait.

2. When I asked my DD's school to help me with an application for statutory assessment, I was told by the SenCo that 'your DD does not meet the criteria for SA so we won't back you, she is working at the lower end of average, and it's too much paperwork for me'. And I was also told by the SenCo that the LEA would only statement ONE child per year group, and there was already one child in her year with a statement. I mananged to get out of the SenCo that the statemented child was working on an NC lvl 3 lvls above my DD (who was still working on p-scales at the time), but he had EBD. So because my DD was a non-learner, but passive, I would get NOWHERE. There was no PP officer for my area at the time. I tried to contact IPSEA but only had a mobile, and couldn't afford to keep trying to ring to get a person. I didn't at the time have the internet. So I had no help, was turned down for SA and didn't feel able to appeal without help. The same thing happened the following year when my DD was in Y6. I didn't know that 'blanket policies' were illegal then.

BTW- I didn't know DD was still working on p-scales at that time, as the SenCo refused to put my DD forward to see the EP, and in my LEA, the only way to get an EP appt is for the SenCo to put the dc forward. 5 years I begged the SenCo to let the EP assess my DD. Eventually I circumnavigated the SenCo by contacting the EP's secretary directly and pouring out the story, and BEGGING her to assess my DD. The next time the EP went to the school, the SenCo still hadn't put my DD forward to see the EP, but the EP ASKED to see her and assess her. So I found out that my DD was not 'at the lower end of average' but still working on p-scales in the JUNE of Y6. It's only now my DD is at Secondary and has HAD the EP assessment that DD is getting more help. DD's primary IEP (on SA+) was for 45 minutes a week help. The Secondary are giving her 11+ hours a week, and are saying that's still not enough, and are now helping me get reports done with a view to helping me get DD statemented and put in SN school as MS will not be able to give her enough/the correct help even with^ a statement, due to timetabling issues. So I was lied to consistently, and obstructed, for FIVE YEARS.

Fve years of wasted education for my DD, when she has less than 5 years left. No way can she possibly, even in SN school, make more than 2 years progress in every single year. Especially as I've been told that she will likely not be moved there until the start of Y8.

And people wonder why a lot of SN parents become disillusioned with the teaching profession as a whole, and begin to make sweeping generalisations based upon their very distressing experiences.

I personally am grown-up enough to realise that not all teachers will act like the ones I've come across, but it is depressing that out of 7 years in primary, over 4 primary schools, I came across only 2 out of 10 teachers that helped my DD, and 5 of the 10 teachers positively hindered her education. Out of 4 SenCo's, 1 was next to useless, one school didn't even have one as she was on mat leave, ONE was extremely helpful, and the one who 'looked after' my DD for the longest (5 years, at her last primary), was downright untruthful and evasive, and still is wrt DS2.

That's NOT a very high percentage of good teachers & SenCo's that I've experienced. So is it any wonder that I'm rather defensive after almost 8 years of this?