Anyone help with PECS

[sadminster]

I haven't had any training apart from ten minutes with the SALT last week. DS has some words but will not use them to request.

We've started with one card (biscuit) what she said to do was

• engineer the situation so that he sees a biscuit that he wants but don't offer it to him.
• when he reaches for the biscuit the prompter puts the card in his hand & helps him hand it to me
• I say biscuit & give him the biscuit

but where is the card supposed to be at the beginning - with the prompter or do I give him the card when he notices the biscuit? He's so fixated on the biscuit that I don't think he notices the card - he'll usually reach for it with which ever hand doesn't have the card then run off as quickly as possible. I don't think he's learning anything.

Completely agree about ball pools etc and sensory rooms. They are great in their own way but not in an educational setting. The Head Teacher of the school DS1 is about to start at was speculating that the funding for horse riding might end this year. My reaction was mixed - partly that horse riding would be great but also a feeling of 'Oh are you worried you will have to sit down and do some work instead !'

I disagree about ball pools etc in an educational setting. It can be appropriate, I have seen soft play used very well with the children in ds1's school (having to follow instructions to select a sequence of large shapes of particular colour to build a tower then knock down). Like anything it depends on the imagination of the teacher and the level of functioning of the children.

Moondog's "choosing what staff believe are reinforcers rather thna what the child likes" is the biggest problem I've observed with people trying to get PECS going. To the point where one supposedly specialist ASD SALT told me that ds1 was going to be impossible to work with 'because he doesn't like anything'. Er not true he just doesn't like NT toys, or teddy bears - but at that time he would do anything for a picture of a washing line.

Moondog- I have found VB consultants a bit wary of PECS, but I don't think VB is particularly great for children who take a long time to learn to imitate (so can't sign very easily). or for those who remain non-verbal. As always, elements which are useful, but sometimes the greater picture doesn't quite work.

Cyber, yes!
Avoidance of work seems to be a key aim of many [not all] special settings.
Re ball pools, fair enough if used appropriately but the smae can be said of anything. I fell the path of 'special resources' is a rocky one to go down.I see places who have all the resources money can buy but like Cyber says, avoid real work and planning and the painstaking blood, sweat and tears that some of these kids need to learn new skills.

Take sensory room for example. I think they were febulous maybe 20-30 years ago when all of this stuff was so new and interesting and stimulating.But honstly now, who really is moved by fibre optics and new age music? Again, I think they are often an avoidance strategy for staff, whether they put child in alone or go in there with them and switch off.

Often a walk in the fresh air feeling the sun and the wind and the rain would be so much more useful ,especially as many of these children are house/school/bus bound a great deal of the time because of their needs.

I suppose it depends on what you are educating for and how. DD1's school is operating (in DD1's age group at least) at the very bottom end of ability and most of what they can measure is in terms of the p scales, and the low end of the p scales at that, which are largely developmental. So a lot of the work seems to be (I say "seems to" because I get my info from deputy head who has been in the system too long and can't speak plain English any more so I have to translate in my head whenever we speak) targetted towards moving them up the p scales because the higher levels give you skills you can use educationally. Sensory work may make other people more "interesting" to the child and give them a better understanding of how they fit into and interact with their environment. A light room may improve their ability to fix and follow which is handy for literacy. Etc etc.

I have all sorts of issues and reservations about this: and would wholeheartedly agree that a "dumping ground" for SN kids has no place in school. But it's the attitude not the facility that's the problem.

She sounds great, Star.

Ah - I'll ask the school when the 'wetware' is being upgraded/re installed ?

Also, get her to be cheeky and ask about measuring progress [prior to baseline assessment of course] and only purchasing equipment with a strong evidence base for its use.

[Bet she deos already though]

Agree with r3

DS1's school uses the sensory white room mainly with children who have PMLD's. They use the dark room a lot with children like ds1 because the children go in 1:1 and they have found it often improves attention.

Many of the children face huge challenges from a sensory perspective - some are so aversive that it probably provides the biggest barrier to interaction. Sand and splash for example provides an opportunity for those children to slowly become desensitised to sensory challenges - and I have seen it work.

The equipment at ds1's school makes it more useful educationally than a school using worksheets would be for him. But it's remit is to take the most disabled in the area, and the equipment is used well.

This is a really interesting thread, thank you all.

dh absolutely cannot take any more leave - he will lose his job. They have explicitly stated that ds' problems are not theirs no compassionate leave there! We have contacted pyramid to ask about their consultancy services (cost!). SALT hasn't given me any info about the benefits or intended outcome of using PECS ... she presented it as no big deal, this will get ds saying 'biscuit' which obviously isn't the point.

We have a VB ABA consultant & I have no idea what he thinks about PECS generally or specifically in relation to ds - we aren't seeing him until the end of the month. I have such mixed feelings about it - SALT is coming next Friday to do another session, I'm not sure whether to continue with what she's suggested or just stop for now (wait for ABA guy's opinion) & continue with Hanen & makaton.

(ds had a really good day today so I'm probably looking through rose coloured glasses rather than my usual pessimism).

Sad, she probably doesn't know [the SALT] to be fair to her.Difficult to sit down and read the literature when a big caseload and monutains of paperwork beckon.

If Iwere you,I'd ring Pyramid and ask for suggested reading. They are generally very helpful.

Re training, also talk to your SW [do you have one? You should.] about it. I have known them fund it.

Sad, the crucial thing is not to have a mishmash of stuff gonig on, with different professionals pulling you in all directions and you being on the verge of anervous breakdown trying to reconcile all different bits of information.That is the worst possible package of care [and sadly the one offered usually by NHS and Education and SS where random people wander in and out of your life.

I can't tell you what to do, I can just tell you that generally speaking the outcomes associated with this sort of approach aren't generally so great. Worth bearing in mind if in the future there is difficulty reconciling SALT and ABA.

These two can work fant astically together [which is the model I am striving for but only if SALTs know about ABA and vice versa. Sadly, very few of them do.]

Moondog ... if we waited for a couple of months to really get going with PECS i.e. if ABA consultant recommends it would the delay hinder ds' ability to pick it up? (he'll be just 3 when we'd start)

I just want ds to talk He's picking up new words & imitating signs & sounds I want someone to tell me how to encourage that ... I'm probably wrong but it feels like the PECS suggestion is saying spoken language isn't going to happen for him.

We don't have a SW because ds isn't diagnosed with anything. I'm really close to the edge now - I had a full blown panic attack at 5am this morning - I have no idea how we are going to manage this.

Sad, Star is so right.
These children need something right now.
If in the worst case scenario they don't develop speech, then they still have a means of communication. If they do develop speech, they have had something to help them get there so you win either way.It just isn't on to wait and hope speech comes without implementing a scientifically proven intervention-which PECS is.

Also a lot of research shows that PECS can help facilitate speech. I myself have used and seen it being used with kids who have then developed functional speech.I am convinced it helped get them there.

Just 3 is a great age to start-nice and early!

So sorry about your panic attack. Have you contacted Parent Partnership for advice and help and info, on local support groups? We have a fantastic charity working in our area that brings together families of kids with SN [and siblings] about once every three months. They meet in a cool place, there are snacks and tea and coffee, arty workshops and entertainment of some sort like a film or a show [where noone turns a hair if a child is noisy or has a meltdown].

sadminster I am starting to use images to help DD communicate. Not full-on PECS, because our SALT hasn't agreed that it will benefit DD, but the consultant mentioned it, and the portage worker recommended it. DD is verbal, but behind, and seems overwhelmed when trying to make choices, etc. We have made some cards, and are going to use them for choice boards, transition between activities (she hates 'endings'), etc.

For DD I think that it is going to increase her communication, because she won't struggle for the label and then resort to 'don't know'. Instead, she will see the object and be able to focus on the request, which hopefully will extend her sentence length and if succesful, could even help with sequencing, etc.

Star, that's a really kind thought, thank you.

We tried it again with crisps this afternoon - ds managed about 6 exchanges before he lost interest.I think we need better reinforcers, we'd got to the point where he was handing over the card on his own for biscuit. Does it matter that ds doesn't look at the card at all?

I'll have a look at parent partnership moondog, thanks.

Well as usual yesterday's good day was followed but an absolutely crap one today - ds said 'up' & 'go' appropriately this morning, but apart from that we've just had tantrums & refusal to eat. Joy.

I appreciate the input into the thread (& sorry if I'm seeming obtuse). I am incredibly frustrated (still no f-ing paed referral & the CDC don't answer their phones) & this PECS thing has become my focus of all that is crap atm.

Well I needn't have spent so much time worrying about it - SALT has just cancelled our sessions because she's ill

ds is now asking for 'bidits', one of very few bits of functional speech. We're seeing our ABA consultant in 2 weeks ... I'm going to investigate how to fund training in the mean time.

Phone and ask for someone else.Time isof the essence here. SALT depts. are pretty quiet in the summer.
So sorry you are having a`hard time. Saw the other thread.
You do know there is a parents'forum on the PECS [Pyramid Educational Consultants UK] site don't you?

We had a SALT once who went on her honeymoon and never came back - not sure if it was a 'Bride in The Bath' situation or not ! Great news about verbal requesting !!!!
Have you thought about the Cauldwell Trust for funding ?