Anyone help with PECS

[sadminster]

I haven't had any training apart from ten minutes with the SALT last week. DS has some words but will not use them to request.

We've started with one card (biscuit) what she said to do was

• engineer the situation so that he sees a biscuit that he wants but don't offer it to him.
• when he reaches for the biscuit the prompter puts the card in his hand & helps him hand it to me
• I say biscuit & give him the biscuit

but where is the card supposed to be at the beginning - with the prompter or do I give him the card when he notices the biscuit? He's so fixated on the biscuit that I don't think he notices the card - he'll usually reach for it with which ever hand doesn't have the card then run off as quickly as possible. I don't think he's learning anything.

I knid of know what the SALT was trying to do in your case Star, but it is too lengthy to get into here. In PECS it is important that the child understands the consequence of what they ask for, whether or not it is something they want [Phases 3a and 3b actually].
However the fact that he could clearly express his views should have stopped them. A situation like this needs someone who really knows their stuff.

Sad, I'm a SALT and I love PECS, althoguh unfortunately most people [including SALTs] don't do it properly. Please go on a course. Could family contribute as a birthday/Christmas present to yuor or your child? Also ,please get in touch with Rotary club or Lions.They often have a fund to help with stuff like this. I have a friend who is a Lions president and he says they have £££££s they can't get rid of. Imagine!!

Star, yes you are right. I am not trying to defend her, just pointing out that I can see what has led her to her mistakes [and as I always say, I just don't understand why people don't get it. If in doubt, just open the bloody manula on the right page and follow the instructions! They don't miss out anything.]

Anyway Star, you know my views on SALT services in this country. I won't say any more.

I'm a huge fan of PECS, it is the method that developed ds1's communication more than anything else, and has saved the day on many an occasion for us. Also if your child can't imitate it's about the only method available imo.

I don't think it's that hard to implement, it's just problematic because so many early years staff seem to be untrained, or trained but not have a clue what they're doing. So they do all sorts of odd things. By going on the training you get to see all the phases so you understand the bigger picture. Their DVD is worth getting as well (still not cheap), and can be a useful for overview for people like granny who aren't going to get trained, but who will need to be interacting with the child. Or if you do have a decent backup to train you and you want something more general to support that.

Yes Star, that's about it!
Don't know why I'm grinning though. It's not funny, it's pathetic.

I would love to be a PECS troubleshooter. I was offered work with them training [couldn't take it up-not practical with dh abroad and 2 kids] but I would really like to sweep into classrooms and homes and sort them out for once and for all.
I literally gnaw my hands off with frustration when I see what is done and what could be done with a little bit of organisation and imagination.

Yes ,nodding to Turnip's comments too. DVD is good.

I also read my manual over and over again. I don't even find it a heavy read.It's fun and interesting.

do you think if I got the manual it would help?

I have a 2 month old breastfed baby & dh has 2 days holiday left this year which will be used for our ABA training ... I can't see that either of us could realistically do a two day course until next year.

DS is expanding his vocabulary pretty quickly (in comparison to 6 months ago) - he's up to about 40 words (horrendously delayed) now BUT he will not use them for anything other than labelling. He's picking up that makaton signs fairly quickly too, but again, only using them for labelling.

The SALT suggested PECS to 'bring together his non verbal requesting (pointing, babble, crying, dragging us) with his words' ... is that the kind of thing that PECS is used for?

Sad, I think the manual helps greatly, but only if you have done the course first.

In dealing with 100s of people using [or attempting to use] PECS I have only come across one exceptionally talented individual (1:1 asst] who got it off the ground just by reading the manual.

Star, those videos are helpful thanks. We're in Reading & absolutely skint (selling stuff to get ABA started)

I don't know what to do.

Are you going to be employing an ABA consultant? IF so they should understand PECS and be able to give you good advice (Bondy who set it up is an ABA consultant).

Well, some of us have no option but to try and work it out from the manual. Money aside, Pyramid only run Pecs intro on Thurs/Fri which we can't manage at the moment. Neither can many parents, I imagine.

Moondog, what are the typical mistakes? In phases 1-3, I mean? I've only just read the manual (first pass of many I imagine) so we haven't really "started" yet.

Er....

not seeing opportunities for communication when there are so many all of the time-different shaped beads, choice of DVDs, utensils, pencils, coloured paper, CDs snd so on.

'a red cup' 'a small biscuit' 'three blue beads' 'help with my coat' and so on.

PECS talk about 'waitress service' which, as it suggests is the typical behaviour of doing too much for kids and pre-emptying opportunities for them to thin k for themselves and initiate conversation. Toys are freely available, food and drink dumped in front of them, doors opened, shoes laced, coats put on, people rush to help them when they even look as if something is gonig to be a challenge. This, combined with the typical special school set up of bloody ball pools and foot spas and sensory rooms means there's absolutely on reason for a child to communicate, thus the staff then tell you that 'he doesn't use PECS' and you are back to square one.

Common technical errors in early stages are using only food as reinforcers, using food for too long so it loses its reinforcing value [if you get crisps and chocolate all day long it ceases to be special], choosing what staff believe are reinforcers rather thna what the child likes, not allowing child to initiate, blurring roles of prompter and communicative partner, only getting out PECS at snack time.

The list is endless.

Some ABA consultants are really dismissive of PECS [especially American ones my Treehouse sources tell me]. Have you found this Turnip? It really shocked me.

I know many go for speech [which took me a lot of time to get my head around although I get it now]but I still have reervations about often 1000s of massed trials to get a tiny bit of speech when with PECS, you can get ocmmunication going in general sense with much less effort.

It's a tough one for me. I think maybe PECS suits SALTs better as it gets results faster and this is essential with the huge caseload most SALTs have.They just don't have the time or expertise with ASD that ABA consultants have. [Which is why I think most SALTs are wasting their time working with this population .I think most of it should be assigned to publically funded ABA consultants. Then, there are better results more quickly and the SALTs can use their expertise in other areas to which it is more suited.]

It's a bit more complex because DD is SLD with zero social processing rather than ASD per se. So the school has a specific ASD environment and she's not in it. SALT is talking about a "total communication environment" but I get the impression that her time in the school is so limited that she despairs of being able to get the staff to do anything properly I have to say I haven't seen much sign of it in Helena's class.

My cunning plan atm is to try and introduce PECS to the best of my untrained ability at home in the holidays. And then, if it works, I can present it to school and say - Look. She can do it. What is your plan to carry this forward?

I'm only really looking at 1-3 because I really can't tell how far she'll be able to grasp the rest. She's developmentally about 8 months though obviously not exactly like an 9m baby. Hopefully once we get the basics working we'll get a clearer picture of what will be difficult in the next stages.

I think your check list is excellent and can apply to any therapy really. Hanen has quite a lot to say about backing out of being your child's communication/life support system. Parents really need professionals to encourage this as it is a natural protective mechanism. I did not mean to sound negative about PECS just that I was not a fan for my/our circumstances. If I met someone with a non verbal ASD child, I would suggest PECS before pushing for verbal language but I do think there is not much else in the cupboard for 'half verbal' children and they are given PECS regardless of the fact that they are already verbally communicating albeit at a basic level. My DS1 could ask for red or green grapes spontaneously (and lots more) when PECS was introduced and my friend's DS could verbalise a lot more, yet he was started on PECS too.

I think that is a very good point Cyber, about blanket prescription if you like, of PECS for kids with language. However at the higher levels it can really help children organise more complex language in their heads and mouths by seing it in picture form

'I want a small green bead and three large blue ones'

I've used it really effectively like this with kids with DS for example who have lots they want to say but cannot retain and sequence it.

But, you need to go through the earlier basic phases before getting to this-Bondy & Frost are quite clear on that. It can be done very fast. I've had kids get up to Phases 4 and 5 in a matter of hours.

R3, PECS is often easier with a child without ASD because many are social and co-operative and want to please the adult they are working with. PECS designed primarily for kids who found this stuff hard, but it does not mean it is only suitable for them.

Nice words of encouragement Star.
I think PECS gets you thinking in a different way which jump starts lots of other intervention approaches.

Yes - I am sure he will need visual help/support for those concepts - but does it have to be PECS? I could see it working better with non ASD as well - DS1 is completely set on his way - Wild tigers could not have made him hand over a PECS card if he had already shouted biscuit

VB is going well as he enjoys verbalising based on his obsessions etc

Visual support also great. I wouldn't be without a calendar for example so kids have a clear idea of what is coming up, and actually seeing what is present, past and future so they have a concept to pin that difficult language onto.

Also picture timetables, Timetimers, object referencing systems. All terrific [when used properly].