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So are only threads celebrating autism allowed?

380 replies

daisy5678 · 05/05/2009 18:14

I am really truly sorry that the poem upset people and I didn't like it.

But I am so so so furious that the thread has been deleted and I wonder what is next...if someone writes a post saying that they are upset with their child's autism dx, is that deleted as disablist? If I write a post saying that I hate something to do with what autism does to my son, will that be deleted?

Like I said on that thread, one person's reality is not another's. One person's autism is not another's. To ban anything that dares to suggest that autism can actually be quite shit just seems to me to make those who find it hard to cope with feel like they're weak or stupid not to celebrate the great joy that is autism.

Or maybe it's me that is wrong to find this wrong, and to find life really quite hard at times and to dislike the fact that autism, in my son (who is really quite high-functioning) causes really quite horrible things, like suicide attempts and stabbing others and self-harm.

Maybe I should just celebrate all that and keep on smiling smiling smiling, and tell anyone who dares say anything negative about autism that they're wrong, because it's all fine and perfect.

But I can't do that, so I guess I'm not welcome on here anymore. So on an SN thread for parents, we can't dislike anything about our children's SN

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vintagevavavoom · 08/05/2009 20:58

hi there this is my first time on here i have 2 sons one is 17 one is 16 my 16 year old has severe autism we love him to bits and i can understand both sides of the arguement i would rather christopher did NOT have autism but he has and i dont spend my life trying to cure him some parents seem to make it there mission in life sometimes i feel so incredibly sad when i see other kids doing so called normal things and my boy cannot do them especially the horrible neds etc we are lucky in as much as our son has a brilliant happy personality which shines through his autism he cannot speak and has very limited comprehension but he has a twinkle in his gorgeous blue eyes and is a rascal when i am bathing him each morning i just look at his wee (lol wee! hes 6 foot)innocent face and think some day some stranger will be doing these things for him which i find terribly hard to accept when me and his dad die sorry morbid but true he will be at the mercy of total strangers who do not love him and its just their job to care for him sorry im ranbling away here and not really making a point i dont know what my point is other than it is SO hard to be the parent of an autistic child sometimes and it must be so hard for christopher as well

daisy5678 · 08/05/2009 21:17

I really didn?t want to come back to this but have been made aware of this idea of having to post warnings about negative posts about autism and just couldn?t stand back really. Also realise that I?d be ignoring a lot that people have taken the time to write, including Amber, so thought it would be rude not to respond.

First, thanks to those who have made an effort to understand what I am actually saying.

Amber I didn?t actually realise that you are the mum to an SN child. You?ve said before that he has dyslexia but I never knew that he had been diagnosed ASD too. My point was that you rarely post as a parent about your child, but usually as a person with SN. Your approach to the infamous poem was not a reaction as a parent, but as a person on the autistic spectrum. All I did was to point out that your perspective as a person with a disability rather than a parent with a child with a disability is very, very different, but this board is for parents with children with SN and, as such, will not necessarily make for nice reading with people with that disability. It is not primarily a support board for people with SN and, as such, its content is very different from a forum intended for that purpose.

That is not the same as saying that you shouldn?t come here, and it?s a shame that your friend from another part of the board was drafted in to the argument here to pretend that that was what I was saying. I?m just saying that, inevitably, parents will see disability differently from the person with the disability. I wouldn?t expect a parent of a child who had Aspergers to go onto a website for people with Aspergers and say, ?all this celebrating Aspergers makes me uncomfortable because my child is really making my life hard?. They?re different audiences and purposes. People need different things ? some like the Holland poem (I don?t, but Gracifer says that it really helped her, so who is to ban poems just because they don?t like them if they?ll help someone else?) and some like the Beirut and the Schmolland one (I do). So banning all poems sits as uncomfortably with me as banning anything else. One person?s crap is another person?s saviour.

You do seem to assume that my posts have only bad intentions. I say: you?re lucky as your life is good ? own business, marriage, child. You say: no, but being on the autistic spectrum is really hard and can be hell at times.
I say: autism is really hard. You say: no, but it?s good, really; don?t say it?s awful.
I can?t win. And no, it?s not about winning, but when you and other people seem to interpret my (polite, non-abusive) posts as being ?against? you, it is frustrating. I am not against you, but the point that you are making. However, note that I am not asking you not to post your viewpoint.

I do find it quite offensive to be lectured about the need to learn about disability when you said, on the site stuff thread: ?but it just would be so lovely to have new people who join the board given some clues about how to respect others with a disability on there. Surely most people would actually like to learn a bit about disability, rather than just seeing that line of gentle warning as some sort of censorship?. I think that we all know quite a lot about disability on the SN board and I don?t think I need clues about how to respect others with a disability. I have not been disrespectful to you and I can?t see that others have either. Not agreeing with the idea that the board should be censored to only suit people other than the group that it is primarily intended for is not being disrespectful of disability.

Your repeated references to the DDA and disability hate crime in reference to what it currently being said are also quite offensive to me as the implication, as I?ve said, is that discussing that poem or saying ?I hate autism? is akin to being anti-disabled and hating disabled people. I totally disagree and feel that saying ?I hate autism? (as people have done on this thread) is not the same as hating your child or people with autism. It?s hating the disability and its impact and people have to be allowed to do that. It?s reflecting their wish for their child to have an easier life, without autism. The ?My Name is Autism? poem personified autism and made it into a monster-type thing. It did not make people with autism out to be monsters or disgusting or any of the other things that you keep repeating?though of course, people don?t have the benefit of seeing the whole poem anymore to choose for themselves: they just get your edited bits or your version of what it said.

?"All autism is a terrible disease that destroys lives utterly. Its people are embarrassing and cause loathing and disgust in others" is what you ?quoted? from the My Name is Autism poem on the site stuff thread. That is not what it said and is your own perspective on it. It does not say that its people are embarrassing; it states that it causes embarrassment and many have come on here to say yes, it can. Other interpretations have been offered to you and you still cling to your own version of it. Please read what others have said about this poem, particularly saintlydamemrsturnip.

The DDA talks about reasonable adjustments. I don?t know if it is reasonable for parents of children with severe elements of autism to feel like their voice can?t be heard. I don?t think it is, but others may differ. You need to feel safe, but so do those who feel they need to voice their frustration and anger and sadness, if necessary. You keep saying ?oh, people can say that they are upset about their child, but can?t go beyond that because a) it?ll upset you and b) it?ll break the law.

You gave these two examples: "Arrghhh, I've had the day from HELL with my ASD child and I want to SCREAM and if social services send me one more Cr&pppy social worker I will need an entire bottle of gin!" Nothing wrong with that at all. Not a thing. Doesn't bother me in the least.

"All autism is a terrible disease that destroys lives utterly. Its people are embarrassing and cause loathing and disgust in others"

See the difference? I do, literally. My brain sees the pictures of those two things, as if they were plays on the tele. One is a picture of a very stressed out mum who needs a hug/cup of tea. The other is a sinister picture of horror.?

But the ?My Name is Autism? poem didn?t actually say the second thing and your ?guidelines? about what is OK and not OK to say about our children have two problems: 1) if we are told what we can and can?t say, we lose our freedom to say how we feel 2) sometimes people want to be able to say that they hate a disability without being told that that actually means that they hate disability and are committing a hate crime.

Very, very often, people on here say about their children?s disability (not their child), ?I hate epilepsy? or ?I hate CP??people have also said (but only in the last week) ?I hate autism??but Davros is right that that is taboo on here and being told to post warnings if subject matter may offend does not help parents to feel safe to say their feelings ? in fact, it forces them to label their own feelings as offensive! So while I understand your pleas to ?feel safe? on here, there is another perspective too: that parents need to feel that way too, which is no less valid for the fact that I (and others who agree with it) do not have SN.

Riven, for example, hates epilepsy for what it does to her child ? understandably. Many parents of children with autism have said on this thread that they hate autism ? understandably. That doesn?t mean that they hate you or any other person?you have to remember too that when this is said, it is said about a child, who is usually the most loved person in that parent?s life. I love my son more than anything, but I do hate autism at times. I do. I hate what it has done to his life as opposed to how his life would have been if he didn?t have it. Not all the time, but at times.

And I want to be able to say that and not be then misinterpreted as saying that I hate autistic people (and I want that right for others too). That is all.

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daisy5678 · 08/05/2009 21:20

Another example: I am a teacher and go on a teachers' website. Some teachers sound off, about parents of children that they teach (anonymously). Occasionally, parents come on the site and get upset that teachers dare slag off parents. But that is their place to vent to that audience. Some teachers are parents too but are posting as teachers for that specific website.

Vice versa happens too - parents making generalisations about teachers on parenting websites. I don't tend to step in and say 'hold on - how dare you', because that is not my 'role' here.

Different websites have different purposes.

I imagine I wouldn't get very far complaining of sexism on a Playboy magazine chatroom, because that's kind of the point of their audience's needs.

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amber32002 · 09/05/2009 06:16

givemsleep, I've never once accused you or anyone else here of disability hatred, nor has it even crossed my mind.

I wish I had the words to tell you how hard it is for me to try to explain things.

I've apologised to you as best I can.

Some of the things I talk about are to help mumsnet with their general disability awareness, and what I was trying to do was explain why it could be hard for a new person to turn up here and not realise that there are also people here with those disabilities.

I've no idea how that's an awful thing to say, or why. I'm afraid I don't have enough theory of mind.

I can see that you're hugely hugely cross with me, and I wish with all my heart that you weren't, because I like and respect you and want be friends

sarah293 · 09/05/2009 06:23

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amber32002 · 09/05/2009 06:29

I'll leave the SN section. I am so sad that I have hurt people on here - it truly never was my intention.

Really, really sorry

sarah293 · 09/05/2009 06:31

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amber32002 · 09/05/2009 06:33

I can't handle it any more Riven - I'm sitting here in floods of tears, and I have a horrible feeling that my stupidity has done that to others too and I wouldn't knowingly do that for all the world.

I just can't handle it any more - please don't ask it of me...

sarah293 · 09/05/2009 06:38

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MaryBS · 09/05/2009 08:18

Amber, like me, has Asperger's, and we post on SN because we empathise with others who have Asperger's, whether they are adults or children, and we want to help parents of children too.

Amber is better at vocalising how she feels than me, but she also exposes herself more to being hurt. So while she is helping others she is not helping herself.

I don't think she should stop posting in SN because she HAS helped so many others. But there is a cost to herself to do this, and I think this is one of those times.

I understand what she is feeling at the moment, and she feels the whole world is crashing down on her head (not a good image for an Aspie!). If I felt like that, I would not be in a position to understand the disagreements/explanations that are going on, I would only see hurt and anger and hatred towards me. It's a bloody awful place to be in.

I'm not saying that you should see that right or justified, or even logical, but it is the nature of my disability, and I suspect Amber is like that too. I know I can't speak for her definitely, but as we are so alike, I suspect that is what is going on.

I hope and pray with a bit of space, she'll be able to come back. I'd understand if she didn't. We chat offline. But if I can help anyone understand, please CAT me.

(and sorry if I've put it badly)

Davros · 09/05/2009 09:17

Amber, I think you are really misunderstanding what is being said. To me you seem to have an utterly exaggerated view of the effect you're having and thinking that you have really upset anyone and I think others are surprised to find out that they have upset you. It isn't that serious, honestly.
I agree with Givemesleep, no surprise there then. But I really can't see how anyone is getting from any of the posts or povs that there is any need or desire for anyone to leave SN or MN.
Does anyone on here remember the Poetry section and how it started and what I did? I don't even know if its still there, that was hilarious!

MaryBS · 09/05/2009 09:26

Davros, it may not seem serious to you, but it IS serious to Amber. I'm sure you don't mean to, but please don't belittle the emotions she is feeling at the moment. They are very real to her. I don't mean this in a nasty way btw.

She has been to hell and back these past few months, if you have seen any of her other posts, then you might be aware of that.

Davros · 09/05/2009 10:01

How do you know that I or other posters haven't been to hell and back? I don't have time, or the inclination, any more to keep up with MN and everything that goes on so I miss things.
I am not belittling Amber's emotions, I'm just trying to explain that her reactions may often be a mystery to others, they are to me. So how can anyone anticipate the effect they're going to have when they believe they are posting quite reasonably, you can't operate that way and you certainly can't expect people to put warnings when they would have no idea when or where to put them.

Peachy · 09/05/2009 10:26

A lot of us have been to Hell and back and are still there in many ways (Sam has decided that ds2 is his victim at school now, DS2 has a cut throat, try navigating that one !) but actually I can see why Amber is upset about GMS's post, I did find it a bit too harsh. Comments such as DX'd ASD.... Amber has been clear that her son has traits, a dx is just a date when someone else agrees, the ASD doesn't start on that date; ds3 hasn't only been ASD since December!

And even dyslexia varies.... my friends son has just been placed in a snu because his dyslexia is just so sever that at 11 he still can't read his own name or perhaps more impprtantly organise even the most basic of tasks, such as getting from A - B.

But I know well from my own experience that little things like that can alienate someone else, and I don't feel that's fair.

There is a valid point about ASD and how its viewed from differing perspectives to be found here, I can understand a lot of it. ASD creates a real problem for us in many ways and I can't celebrate ASD, how could I? But I can celebrate my boys and do, and I think that's what Amber does: a whole eprson, gestalt take on it 9the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts).

Amber you are welcome here for me, anyone who seeks to limit who is welcome on MN if that is what they are attemptineg or make people feel unwelcome definitively does not have that support. A specialist board may be mroe appropriate for them but this is an open forum and your posts do help me. In fact as you know you have helped me in RL also, and it is so appreciated.

I could understand why you might want a break, I've done that in the past and you have to look after yourself first. But it's quite possible for people to avoid each other on MN as in RL if that's whats needed.

MaryBS · 09/05/2009 10:27

Davros, I don't know that, I know. But why don't you show a little compassion and cut her a little slack? Her reactions may be a mystery to you, but she doesn't need this right now. I don't give a damn about the issues and the warnings at the moment, what I DO care about is a friend who is feeling hurt and stressed by what has been said, and in her eyes, people aren't letting up on her even now.

MaryBS · 09/05/2009 10:33

(and sorry if that sounds harsh, don't mean it to be )

daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 10:51

peachy you said "Amber you are welcome here for me, anyone who seeks to limit who is welcome on MN if that is what they are attemptineg or make people feel unwelcome definitively does not have that support. A specialist board may be mroe appropriate for them but this is an open forum ."

So is that about me?

How am I trying to limit who is welcome on MN?

And is what you're saying that I should go elsewhere?

Or am I misinterpreting your post?

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daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 11:07

If it helps, I certainly don't hate you, not at all, and I'm sad (albeit) frustrated that my posts are upsetting you. They're not intended to. I'm trying to explain, as logically and unemotively as I can, my point of view because I am trying to help you to understand it.

I have expressed no desire for you to leave. I have said on numerous occasions that your posts have helped other people and I would not ever seek to limit something or someone who does that.

You aren't hurting me. The situation is upsetting and frustrating me, but that's not all about you.

e.g. the peachy thing below - I really respect and like peachy from what she posts, and yet now this whole thing seems to be causing a line to be drawn, like if people agree with amber, then I must be a nasty person who is trying to push her off the board, and anyone who agrees with me must be doing the same. It's not like that, but it's like people are having to take sides when all this is is a heated discussion that one side is finding particularly hard because of a disability. I'm trying, because of that to explain more clearly than I would normally take the time to do - but then accused of making someone not welcome on the board?

Peachy, my point about Amber's son was that I only ever saw him mentioned as having dyslexia (which is not a SN that people usually join the board for, not on its own, though I'm not saying that they shouldn't) and so assumed that Amber was here largely as a person with SN, as that's what she tends to post as. Then suddenly her posts said that her son had ASD and I'd never seen that that was suspected before, so now assumed that he'd been recently dx'd. It wasn't a challenge or whatever you've interpreted it as.

Lots and lots of interpretations on all this, some misinterpreted, some overanalysed, some understood.

Can't we just say that everyone is welcome to stay and post what they want to post? That's the point I've been making all along!

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MaryBS · 09/05/2009 11:18

givemesleep, I too would like to see this calm down, because essentially it isn't about hating each other because we're all horrible people, or even that one side is horrible and the other side isn't. We are all different people though, and there will be disagreements and people do misinterpret each other.

There is only one line I would like to see drawn, and that's a line under the hurt and heat and arguing. It's not a battle, its about mums with disabilities and mums of children with disabilities. We are ALL hurting to some extent, but for different reasons.

Its also very easy for me to say all this, because I've not been involved in the to-ing and fro-ing of discussions. I'm not even sure what I AM trying to say!

Maybe MAYBE if we all take a deep breath, we can come to some sort of mutual agreement to agree to disagree, accept that misinterpretation is what has happened, and cut EVERYONE some slack???

(now I'll sod off)

daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 11:26

Mary, makes total sense.

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FairLadyRantALot · 09/05/2009 11:33

I have read a fair few pages of this thread but not all....

Hm, maybe if we changed the context from Aspergers/Autism to say cancer, it would all of a sudden sound far more "acceptable" to say, I hate cancer, without anyone thinking that person implies that they hate the person that has cancer?
I think most people if they have cancer or their child has cancer will very openly say they welcome a cure, they will be able to say that they hate what the cancer does , and no one would ever think that a person saying this is disliking a person with cancer, instead it will be clearly understood that it is the actual cancer that is hated....

and now transfer it back to Autism Spectrum disorders...it really is the same, isn't it....
I think it is quite a normal rection to dislike what autism does to your child...it isn't saying that the person wiht autism/ that that child with autism isn't very much loved....just, if there was a cure, wouldn't it be lovely to have that choice?

Sorry, if I am speaking out of my backside, here...

improvingslowly · 09/05/2009 11:37

That does make sense Mary.

Is it possible to ask for this thread to be closed down?

Peachy · 09/05/2009 11:49

OK sorry I didnt reply earlier, actually I did then entire PC crashed and burned on me, again.Must oput in that claim to family fund for the new one.

GMS it wasn't just your post made me type that would probably be the most accurate way to explain my comment. This is spread over so many threads after all. So many seem to sugest a break / a specific forum and if any one person said that to me I'd be OK but...... if it'sr epeated I'd, in all honesty, end up focussing on that and feeling unwanted.

I've done the 'I hate ASD' thing myself, most recently screeched whilst throwing a bear (a teddy, no real bears were ahrmed....) at the wall. Absolutely. I can separate the two and do easily.

Amber is this something you need some help with I wonder though? My guess is that ASD is part of the way you define yourself, esp. as you work in a related field. I can get that, I find I seem to define myself as a mum Of Sn so mcuh these days.

The cancer explanation of how the things are different is a good one. When I say I hate autism, I certainly dont mean I hate anyone with ASD. It means I hate the problems and limitations that sutism gives to us.

I cant see how any formal MN thing willwork. TTR has rules in palce but that's a tiny forum and workable. MN is just too big I think. It just ahs to come down to a bit of give and take. We have to remember that Amber finsds some things hard to handle and Amber can I hope udnerstand that at times we post quickly in worry and distress and certainly dont mean any ofence to anyone, or hurt.

And eprhaps we need a crap poem topic PMSL, so Gracie can have her way and the rest of us avoid

RIght. Can we be friends again please? This has got so out of hand, way above what is should have been.

daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 11:56

peachy you said "The cancer explanation of how the things are different is a good one. When I say I hate autism, I certainly dont mean I hate anyone with ASD. It means I hate the problems and limitations that sutism gives to us.

I cant see how any formal MN thing willwork. TTR has rules in palce but that's a tiny forum and workable. MN is just too big I think. It just ahs to come down to a bit of give and take. We have to remember that Amber finsds some things hard to handle and Amber can I hope udnerstand that at times we post quickly in worry and distress and certainly dont mean any ofence to anyone, or hurt."

That's it. Both sides need to be able to say what they say, but of course sensitivity on both sides is needed.

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daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 11:59

I would be unhappy if this thread did close down, improvingslowly, because of the same reasons I was unahppy that the other one did. There have been no personal attacks AFAICS and the debate/ discussion and the expression of feelings by people about their viewpoint don't warrant being closed down. IMO.

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