when did you know your dc had to go to specialist school?

[drlove8]

how old? . am wondering as dd4 is at mainstream nursery now, but have doubts as to whether its the best place for her.... and i have no idea how she'll be at primary.how do you decide anyway? Do the medics recomend specialist school, or is it usually the parents decision? obviously as dd4 is "different" she'll be an easy target for bullies, she's already had comments from a 4 yr old at nursery,(he's just a baby though so let it go, but a wee bt of educating its ok to be different wouldnt go amiss )just want whats best for dd4......

of course you are entitled to an opinion riven.

sorry that thought terrifies me

that is good,
but I can only look at my dd and what is best for her.
so closing all sn schools would be a terrible thing imo.
I know so many young people who would never cope in ms, however much money and adaptions you throw at it.
a good sn school is not just a building, it is the people in it.
the support and help I hav ehad oover the years whould never be there in ms.
the support and help dd has had would never be there in ms.
ditto for ds and dh.

Personal view/experience warning
I think it is possible for an SN child to be included and feel happy and confident in a MS setting - so long as they have been in that setting since nursery. I once worked as a TA with a Year 4 lad, his brother (cp) was in Year 2. He was very happy, having been in the same environment/with the same kids since they were all in nursery. Meanwhile, his brother who I worked with, had Hirschsprungs and had had extended periods away from school. He was not accepted by peers, attracted many disparaging comments, was disadvantaged socially. It was a heartbreaker of a job. I don't think either would have been high achievers academically.
Now DS has just finished his first placement in MS for science lessons. I have just asked him for the honest truth about it and he said he'd already covered the work and the other pupils blanked him. He hopes he's not sent back.
Which says to me, I am bloody glad I don't have to make the decision for any other SN child!
Also have to say that at DS's SN school, EVERY child leaves with some sort of qualification. Most leave with GCSEs. I know this because as a governor I present the certificates at a ceremony every autumn. Mind you, DS's school recently scored excellent in every category of its OFSTED.
Blimey, longest post I've ever done.
Fio, was either of the young people you described Treloar-educated?

My daughter has SLD and attends a mainsream school with a resource unit. It works on a fixed sysytem of 50% in each. IMO inclusion only worked well for her in nursery and maybe reception. As she has got older her inclusion is just locational. In MS the work she does is SO different to her peers or so over her head that it's pointless. She will be moving to a special school this year. She now has no peer friendships

If I could go back I would have chosen a special school for her but the LEA really encouraged us to select this school and we stupidly thought they knew what they were doing and were not concerned with saving money. I think the 'inclusion movement' is very convenient for LEAs because of this and helps parents who may be in denial about their child's needs.

MS will work for some children of course but let parents have the choice of special schools.

If they closed my sons school then he would simply come and live with me. He could not cope in a mainsteam school. He only copes in the world with the help and close attention of people who love him.
What would need to change in a mainstream school ? Well for him they would need to remove as many other pupils as possible.
he does not have mainstream friends, without supervision and supportthey terrify and alarm him. He barely needs the school friends he does have. He has six other boys in his class and a staff of five.
That is what he needs. he needs HIS school. It broke my heart when I realised he would not be going mainstream but I did what he would want me to.

If the special schools close then my son will lose the small amount of friendship that he has. He will loose the satisfaction of occasionally being the best at something. He will loose all sense of safety and security.He will loose the enviroment where every lesson and every experience is structured and shaped so that he can access it.
he is very happy. I am happy. The notion that someone else thinks that they know better than we do what is good for him, what helps and enlightens him, makes me angry.

"If the special schools close then my son will lose the small amount of friendship that he has. He will loose the satisfaction of occasionally being the best at something. He will loose all sense of safety and security.He will loose the enviroment where every lesson and every experience is structured and shaped so that he can access it.
he is very happy. I am happy. The notion that someone else thinks that they know better than we do what is good for him, what helps and enlightens him, makes me angry. "

This sums up why I am happy for my Ds1 to attend the special school he is at and why I would not be happy to attend mainstream education at this moment.

I want J in mainstream, because he can cope, with support, there. However, because they don't want him there, it's hard. So I could argue that the reason the placement isn't great is because they're disablist and anti-inclusion. But I know that it's only partly that and partly because the very very rare incidents of J lashing out/ taking all his clothes off/ rampaging across the desks/ hurling furniture are very very hard for them to deal with. They feel that some of these incidents are caused by his stress of having to conform in a class of 28 - probably partly true.

The placement isn't great because J has autism, not just because of their attitudes, and if J is still a runner/ climber and violent at 11 I don't see how he'll be able to go to to mainstream because he'd need a secure (locked) environment and a low-stress environment to keep him safe and calm. I can't see how he'd cope with 1000 kids. Not going to mainstream wouldn't be because the world is disablist or because his mother is ignorant about the differences as she's not disabled herself, but because mainstream wouldn't meet his needs.

I also think that, as 2shoes said, kids get much less inclusive as they get older. Yes, they should learn to accept each others' differences, but I don't want J to be their teaching tool and stand there in assembly on National Autism Day being the token 'freak', 'weirdo' or whatever the phrase is for that time. Even full time support (like he has now) couldn't totally protect him from cruelty. And I'd give anything to protect him from that. We can say children should be more accepting and that society should be more accepting, but while they aren't and it isn't, special schools are very very much needed for those who just can't cope. I've seen too many examples of failed mainstream placements and they didn't fail because people wanted them to, but because the child's needs were too extreme.

I'm a secondary teacher and I know how cruel kids can be. They're actually great with a disability they can see, but ASD children I know in mainstream find life very very tough socially. A good autistic school for children with average-good ability is needed here but there isn't one. If there was, and J needed it, I'd jump at it.

Yes, schools need to become more inclusive, but some children will always need a special school.

An education is about more than just exams. Inclusion is about more than just being there and taking part.

I think Fio said it best when she said a blanket policy will never work. The whole spirit of the DDA and SENDA was about offering what each person needs, not just having the same thing for everyone. So getting rid of special schools wouldn't be a reasonable adjustment in itself and would, imo, be very very bad for the minority of children who need somewhere different.

I was so angry about some comments on here last night I felt it best not to post (in anger)

I want to say that my dd1 is 8. My husband and I are actively campaigning to get her in a local special school ful time from September. She is currently on a dual placement, 3 days in MS and 2 days in a special school.

Both schools agree this is the best way forward. The excellent clinicians and therapists involved in her care agree it is the best way forward for her. We have 2 schools in mind, and would be delighted for her to go to either.

We are prepared to go as far as tribunal to get the result we want.

I have the intelligence, the knowledge of my own daughter, and the overwhelming love for her that enables me to make the decision I know is best for her. Whatever someone else who has never met her/us/the staff at both schools might think.

What's the expression (taken totally out of context here!!!!) about each according to his ability..... to his need....?

It would never occur to me to question another family's choice of educational establishment for their child. All power to them. How fantastic that some children with SEN can and will thrive in Mainstream.

And please don't question or ridicule my decision to send my lovely daughter to a special school I know will help her to thrive, socially and educationally.

Well I have no idea what would happen to my son if SN schools and centres closed. In order to access things he needs locked rooms. If he doesn't have a locked room he needs someone shackled to him the entire time.

Life is about experiences, my son is able to experience a lot more in special school and in special units and indeed in special sessions than he could without those. Remove those options and you will removed his chance to access life and experiences.

Different disabilities require different adaptations to fully access life. For my son he needs space, quiet, trained staff, special sessions and locked doors.

oh totally agree with the peer thing too.

My son has equal friendships in school. We see that when we bump into his school friends out and about. He could never have equal friendships in mainstream.

mrsturnip "equal friendships"
you hit the nail on the head.
if dd was in ms, she would have "friends" but they would be there when it suited them.
not equal like she has now iynwim.

And I want sepcialist provision for my son as an adult as well. Closing the day centres in the name of inclusion has led to young adults with severe needs having nowhere to go. So they're dumped with employers looked after by carers paid the minimum wage and removed from their friends and peer group.

I will be fighting for my son to attend specialist provision where he will be able to go climbing, care for animals, go walking, go into town and live with his peers and friends. Yes these places exist. If some do-gooder tried to shut it down in the name of inclusion thus depriving my son of the chance to have a fully active life I would be beyond livid.

Here's my two peneth for what its worth,
DD in mainstream
9am into school, assume foetal position under table, sream cry and shake
3pm go home, screaming and shaking
3.30pm untill 3am no interaction with anyone, bangs head on wall, screams and shakes

DD in wondwerful special school
9am get on the bus smiling
9.25 start very structured intense day of learning, continue untill 3.30
4pm arrive home smiling, make constant eye contact with parents, play, interact and laugh loads, eat good dinner, bath (still smiling)
7.30pm happily to bed sleep for 11 hours

I rest my case

In this utopian society that we all want to live in what will happen to the thousands of kids with autism and sensory processing disorders who simply can't function in ms?
Inclusion at any cost is not feasable for these kids.

mrsturnip there was some poor woman on the tv last night. she had severe ld and was expected to live by herself. she couldn't vene make a cup of tea!!

Agree that inclusion = exclusion. It did for my son. It cannot be done 'properly' for him. He had full time 1:1. But he's severely autistic. He doesn't want to have to sit down with a bunch of children, he can't be taught via language, he doesn't have any, he wants to explore but has no understanding of danger or even that he has to stay in the school building. Because of those problems he couldn't be included in school plays, or school trips, or taught to fetch the register independently or even taught the things he needs. All of which happens at special school. I couldn't give a stuff about academics, until he has language its not relevant to him. I am pleased he has learned to make and butter toast, I am pleased he has learned to sit in a cafe, I am pleased he has learned to lay the table, I am pleased he has been able to go donkey riding regularly, I am pleased he has learned to communicate well despite his big problems with language and speech. Why on earth would I have any interest in academics or GCSEs????

The trouble with inclusion is that it is most damaging to the most vulnerable.

The disability campaigners have no understanding of my son's condition. How could they? Adults like him can't represent themselves. People with different disabilities do not talk for him.

I read a paper recently which had explored the different experiences that children had in ms and special school (using children who had gone from one to the other - all children with PDs, no LD's). The researchers found they liked both types of schools and had friends in both, the special schools had higher expectation in terms of independence whereas they tended to be 'cared for' in mainstream. Mainstream schools had more emphasis on academics.

In my son's case independence is far more important than academics.

My DS1(ASD) is going to an autism specific school in August. He has developed a lot since diagnosis but if I was being honest, his younger brother could cope better with P1 at this stage. From reading the threads, there seems to be a big difference in policies in different areas. In my area, there were parents on the Hanen program with very high functioning ASD children who have been told their children are not ready for mainstream yet, but I have seen examples on this board of non verbal children in nappies going to mainstream in other areas. I think it is very much a case of the LEA looking at provision in an area first before looking at the children's needs and parents need to be aware of this factor.

cyberseraphim you are right. they are doing this here.
I have been told that when dd is 16 I have to look at the local college(sn) her sn school has a 16 plus depeartment. yet they want me to move her......because her sn school is independant.