Help on developing social communication skills

[Roz]

My dd is 9 and has struggled with social communication since I can remember. She has been assessed and we've been told that she is not on the spectrum but uses some aspergery strategies particularly when she doesn't understand the rules or feels unsafe.
We were also told after an Ed Psych assessment at school that she was in the wrong school environment - too unstructured ( a bit of a shock since we moved 4 years ago to enable our dd to go to a Steiner School which we felt would give her the best all round education and help support her slightly different ways).
When our eyes were opened as to what had been going on for her at school, not only did we feel guilty that we had not realised the extent of teasing/provocation/baiting that she had been subjected to for three years but we also felt immense anger that the teacher (who in a Steiner system takes the children from year 1 to year 8)had not supported our dd and allowed the "bullying" to go on unchecked. She kept telling us that things were improving and that all the children were really supportive of dd.
Now it is time to move on and I want to support dd in developing the social skills she seems to lack. I do belive the dx since she seems to struggle with only part of Asperger's - the social - and only certain aspects of that (picking up on other children's queues, seeing things from other children's perspective, empathy). She does not struggle on a one to one basis, only in groups. She can talk very clearly about the aspects she struggles with in social communication but doesn't seem able to stop herself being a bit over-powering or not recognising when other children are backing away.
She has got three more days in school then we are going to home school her for a term before she hopefully goes to a local independent school in September which I think will provide her with a more structured approach (God knows how we are going to pay for it!). We feel that this will help reduce the amount of time she feels unsure about the social rules and provide a "safer" environment.
During the coming term at home I would like to help her develop some of the skills she lacks but am at a bit of a loss as to how. She will and does have opportunities to socialise but I struggle with getting her to move from the intellectual understanding of what she needs to do to the actual doing of it.
Any ideas or useful texts. Most of what I have read seems to talk about the theory but very little practical advice. (I'm all theoried out!!!)

Jessica Kingsly WWW.JKP.com have a few books using social stories aimed at children with AS which may be helpful. (I cant recommend any we use as ds has SLD and we are working at his level.) You could then practice scenarios at home, before attempting them in real life. I watch tv with my son and try and comment of body language or expressions(Oh-oh he looks cross!. I wonder if you could do similar (but at her level)with dd perhaps with childrens soaps where there is a degree of overacting? We also go out with a view to practising coping in specific social situations (already rehersed through play)- when I am up for it! HTH

Roz, I really feel for your situation.
If your daughter is able to use skills in a one to one, surely they must be there, and there is a certain fear of the group?
Or having been bullied teased, that brings her fears to the fore?

I think ythe idea of practising situations is really helpful. I know an adult with mild asbergers, who sometimes won't back away or know when the converstation is moving on. He needs to be lead to move on, etc. I also find that sometimes he can be absolutely fine, other days really bad, often because something has upset or distressed him. Hopefully the envioronment at a small friendly school wil give your daughter the boost to try out her skills without being rebuffed., unlike the situation in Steiner schools.

I feel also for you in having her at a Steiner school, where one would imagine it was gentle, caring nurturing place.
Unfortunately, bullying is rife at Steiner schools, and what you say about the teacher ingnoring it happened so often where we were.
I won't go on about the Steiner beliefs hear as there are many threads on them, only to say that they see anything from dyslexia to left handed ness as a reincarnation problem, , and leave bullying, as to interfere interupts the karmic path.

I really hope things get better from now on. Our kids were different children when they left the Steiner system, and i have no doubt it will be a huge relief for your daughter.

I just re read your post- the feeling of being unsafe used by the proffessional who assessed her seems so significant. Our kids felt continually unsafe at their Steiner school, physically and emotionally.

I reaaly think you are absolutely doing the right thing. We homeschooled ours for half a term before they went to a small village school.
I wouldn't push the learning/writing/projects too much when you first start- just enjoy being with her, go to places together etc. We went to those petting farms and fed lambs etc. I could see them visibly relax.

I wouln't be atall surprised if when she feels at ease, her social skills will improve. There's nothing like a friendly, positive envioronment to make it easier to empathise with others.
And going to a new school is hard, but as my then 9 yr old said, "After Steiner Mum, anythings a doddle"

how does she feel about doing a group sports or dance/ drama/music/ art activity? something where there are rules- all the class do stuff togeteher with adult direction, but also other kids her age.

Hi, my ds does have a diagnosis of AS and ADD. He has found the social skills sessions at school absolutely invaluable and has made great progress since he embarked on them. Any normal state school should have access to these - I know other children with AS at state schools who are also doing these programmes. Obviously it depends on the child and the severity of the problem but I do feel (as a general rule) that state schools offer more for kids with AS or anything like this. The good news is that social skills sessions can make all the difference especially to kids on the mild end of the spectrum.

I suggest you have a look at the NAS website. They have lots of books about teaching social skills. Also the SENCo at your daughters new school should be able to access appropriate material.

Good luck and I am sorry the Steiner school did not work out.

How reassuring to hear how others have benefited from leaving the Steiner system. I've heard it so many times before about how children who have struggled with life at a Steiner school have flourished once they are in a different system. My hope is that dd will also blossom but I also have to recognise that she does struggle and a change of system alone will not do it.

Caroline3 - the reason we are not considering a state system is that in Sept she will be 10 and hence would go into Yr 6 of Primary - she is currently in year 3 of Steiner and the jump is massive. I don't want to expose her to two changes in one year from Steiner to State primary to State secondary and at a disadvantage both socially and academically. So Home Education and/or Independent School is the only viable option. Thanks for the NAS website - I'll try it.
Northernrefugee - its interesting what you say about your 9yr old saying anything after Steiner is a doddle - I have a belief that the coping skills dd has developed at Steiner have strengthened her and will enable her to cope with far more in the future. She is a lighter child since she has learned that she is going to a different school! But I still worry because I know she is different in the eyes of other children.

UniS - my aim is to get her doing at least one social activity per day - choir/drama/ sport etc. The village we are in has 45 families home educating so there'e lot going on. But my concern is to focus on the social without making an issue of it in her eyes - difficult balance!

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Sorry, magso I've just read through the suggestions again - I like the idea of social stories and role play. I try them sometimes, especially when things have not gone to plan and we analyse what went wrong. Dd is very good at running out the door saying "Yes yes yes.... I get it Mum" and then half an hour later coming in dejected because things have not gone as she wanted with the kids in the close. It breaks my heart - but she can't quite put into practice what she talks about in the cold light of day. I spend my time feeling like a helpless bystander.
I'll have a look at the Jessica Kingsly.

Roz, you say she's a lighter child since she's learned she's going to another school. This is exactly what happened to mine, it was as if a veil lifted. And the things that happened, things that they were told, the full extent of what it was like in a Steiner classroom, school envioronment, is still coming out( our youngest two left in May)

One thing Roz- don't blame yourself, and don't feel bad; the schools deliberately mislead; they sell you one thing, when in fact you are getting something quite the opposite.

You will be surprised how different her reactions will be when she's with people who don't react to her slight differences.
She'll open up I'm sure.

There's a girl at my daughter's school, who IS on the spectrum; she finds social situations very difficult, but can't quite understand why.
My daughter says that she now has a best friend, when she's not around people who make her anxious, she's really fun, and is thought of as mildly eccentric, but popular. And she sounds as if she has more problems than your daughter.

And of course you feeling like a helpless bystander is partly because you're so close I guess... she picks upon your feelings etc, it's all related. She probably senses your anxiety, maybe feels helpless herself.. all a circle. If she can do it with adults slightly removed, her sense of confidence will come back.

The adults at Steiner Waldorf are NOT like adults in other educational environments.

When you have the energy, there are some links you could read which will make you realise your situation is certainly not isolated.

My opinion is that Steiner schools are not a good option, among other things because of the bullying situation and the teachers' mentalities which I feel most often don't live up to basic requirements. (And those things are of course absolutely essential with an asperger's child.) I know, from my own experience in a waldorf school, that waldorf/Steiner teachers are unpredictable, moody, unresponsive to children's needs, uncaring, unreliable, and don't act like responsible adults. One aspect of this is that the child may feel that school is an unsafe place which is stressful in itself, another aspect is that the neither the Steiner teachers nor the other children (often left unsupervised and free to keep bullying) will provide an environment where a child will learn social interactions and improve socially.

The sad thing is that the teachers who endorse bullying by calling it "helping" or something else with a positive connotation - they aren't uncommon in waldorf. (I had such teachers, and I hade NO teachers who cared about what happened, even if they didn't exactly promote it!)

In any case, from my personal perspective (I was a pretty odd child - not very social and not fitting in, so to speak), waldorf/steiner is an environment I would warn people about.

So, while I don't have much good advice, I think it was sensible of you to react to how your daughter was feeling, instead of relying on the teacher's statements about improvement. I would bet the improvement wasn't anywhere near in sight.

I certainly think it's a good idea to train the social skills by social activities, but on the other hand people with asperger traits easily feel overwhelmed and exhausted by too much social stuff going on. If she has special interets, maybe this (or those) can be incorporated in social activivies of some kind. That way she will have the opportunity to excel a bit (self-esteem and self-confidance), and also to sort of feel "at home" since she's familiar with what's going on and can concentrate on the social aspects a bit more. Just some random thoughts, I really don't know.

Thank you all so much for the time and thought you have all put in to your responses to my cry for help. I have found it very reassuring to hear of all the children who have blossomed once they are in a system which supports them. Whilst I recognise that my dd has some socialisation ahead of her I feel that in a different system she will be free from the sort of environment which has led to her difficulties becoming more entrenched.

Your messages have given me food for thought and more importantly... hope.... that my wonderful dd will reach her potential and become an impressive adult one day. A big thank you from the heart.

Roz
your whole story has really touched me. Partly because I know what you're going through a bit, my kids don't have major problems but they were affected by bullying at the Steiner school, and there was a boy in one of their classes who I would say was on the spectrum, but his parents were anthroposophical,( they did curative eurythmy with him.)
He was a gentle bright boy, we shared lifts and knew him well. Apart from physical bullying, punching kicking, two kids used to take his note book, which he drew the most amazing drawings and wrote in tiny capiyals, wonderful stories and adventures. One day they took this precious book tore out pages, scoffed and stamped on it.
His Dad was marginallty less bonkers than his Mum, (who thought it was karmic that the book was damaged), and brought it up at parents evening. The general angle of the response was that because he was a bit odd, he brought it on himself. My heart went out to him, I still see him ocasionally and heis stare lingers sometimes like a cry for help.
I always spopke out, at the parents evening I said how ridiculous, that bullying was totally unacceptable, but they all just sat there, hands clsped on their laps, sing song voices, wait til I'd stopped talking. I often used to walk out!

Do let us know how she's geting on. She's still so young and has so much time to make up for the Steiner lost time.

If you're interested there are some personal stories and articles here
here
here

www.easeonline.org the education page here]]

And good luck to you both, I'll be thinking of you...
[[

The education page here

Will the school write a story for her leaving?

We had some race issues at our school with our kids.

One of the teachers wrote a play which was involved.
I later discovered that they often write things for the children, stories about dark princesses who weren't ready to play in the garden with the blond ones type thing.....

My hackles are rising..... These schools have so much to answer for...

Roz - your DD sounds a little like my DS1 (6) who is probably on the mile AD/Dxyspraxic spectrum. He is in state education and finds social situations difficult (just like me) but he is getting better.

The most important thing for him has been that I have made good friends with a couple of other mums in his class. In the holidays we do things with the boys, even though to be honest they don't have much in common. He thinks that they are his friends and helps him in the classroom.

Also good book:
www.amazon.co.uk/Unwritten-Rules-Friendship-Strategies-Friends/dp/0316917303/ref=pd_bbs_6?ie=UTF8&s= books&qid=1206017429&sr=8-6

It has lots of stuff where you read and go yes, my child does that. So its good on validation but also has some good ideas on how to speak to your child and things that they can try. Its not a special need book per se but useful for children with social issues.

Northernrefugee. Thank you so much for your understanding. The sites you linked we first saw when we were entering onto the Steiner education route and we dismissed them as the rantings of a prejudiced cynic. Now of course we see things slightly differently. Today was my dd's last day at school. Was there a leaving card organised by the school teacher? No. Was there anything special done for her to make it a good last day? No. Was there any recognition by the teacher that this was her last day? No. Some children came up and had done cards for her off their own backs which brought tears to my eyes and some parents were very sad to see us go (not the antheropods!).

There are moves within this particular Steiner School to drag it into the 21st century (against a massive resistance from the old school) and to tackle some of the issues like bullying, lack of support for any children who are different, provision of an academic challenge for those children who are bright etc. This is mainly, I suspect to stem the flow of those who are voting with their feet (nearly a third have left in three years!).

Having said all this, I don't want to dismiss some of the beautiful things dd has done over the past four years and what following a Steiner education has prompted us to exclude from our lives e.g incessant TV watching, electronic games, all the things that cause our children to grow up too quickly etc etc etc. Because of the school we have moved to a beautiful part of the country, bought a dog which forces us out into the forest every day, encouraged dd to develop a stunning imagination and kept her protected from the horrors of the world and as a 9 yr old should be. For this reason I am working at letting our experiences of the school go (having sent a 4 page document to all and sundry in the school detailing the reasons for our disenchantment) and am looking to the future and trying to do all that I can to ease her way into a more mainstream education system. There will be some things that I miss in the Steiner system - the art work, the reverence for beauty, the breadth of the curriculum (what dd knows about farming and building is nobody's business!) but I now welcome a change and an opportunity for dd to know that teasing/baiting/goading are not normal and she doesn't have to put up with it anymore.

Kaz33. Thanks for the book reference - sounds good I'll look it up.

Northernrefugee: I am the DH of Roz (except I think she'd probably substitute a 'B' for the 'D'!) and I've joined Mumsnet expressly to respond to your very moving responses to our plight (and will I get drummed off for being a Dad?!).

Unlike my DW, I am not so good at leaving the past behind me, and I am still very bitter and angry about what has been going on for our DD at school and the complete betrayal of our trust that the school (or more specifically the class teacher) has committed.

This thread could so easily turn into an anti-Steiner thread, which is not my intention, but I have been shocked to read the almost universally-accepted concept here that 'bullying' (in one form or another) is so rife in Steiner schools: I had no idea this was so common (although I hesitate to call what went on with the 8/9 year olds in DD's class as bullying, it would surely become that in later years).

What I am still so angry about is that for years we TRUSTED everything that her class teacher told us: that it was all DD?s fault, that the other kids in the room supported her, that progress was being made with her behaviour, etc., etc. It was only when we got help from outside the school (ironically, recommended by the class teacher!) that we gradually began to see things in a different light, and came to understand that our DD was in completely the wrong environment, that she was constantly being goaded/provoked/teased, because the other kids knew she was sooner or later going to react and that then she?d get into trouble. (DD?s comments to us were always along the lines of, ?it?s so unfair, Mrs X never tells the others off? ?, and we?d always be on her case to not react, etc. It was only when we saw how unruly the class was, and when other parents started telling us how it was amazing that our DD didn?t react SOONER, that we began to change our point of view and it dawned on us that this wonderful system, that we?d undergone major lifestyle changes to get into, was completely wrong for our DD.)

The story about the kid having his book trashed brought tears to my eyes, and I recognise the reaction of the parents to this incident as being well within the parameters of being anthroposophical: I?ve met many surreal parents in our sojourn at this Steiner school (including one who hasn?t eaten food since Christmas, on the grounds that they can live on their ?spiritual energy? ? the fact they look like something out of Belsen is obviously neither here nor there? ).

Oh, I could go on and on with this rant, but unfortunately I don?t have DW?s touch-typing skills (this lot has already taken about an hour to type!), so I?ll give it a rest for now?

Cor blimey!

I've spent the past 2 hours reading through some of the stuff at the links northernrefugee posted: it's dizzying material (and not exactly accessible to read easily), and I probably wouldn't have bothered before...

Now, however, I can see the pattern that emerges: parents trying to do the very best for their children, going for the wonderful-sounding alternative of Steiner-Waldorf education, but being let down by a system that is dogmatic, inflexible and sanctimonious.

If only I'd come across all this previously, but then, as my DW has already pointed out, I wouldn't have believed it.

I did transfer to another school, and while no schools are perfect, i felt there was a huge difference in how teachers handle situations. In contrast to waldorf, the other school had teachers that were sort of present, they were there, mentally and physically. They knew what happened, and they cared about it. They didn't become teachers because they were members of a cult, but because they wanted to teach (or have a decent job - which in all cases is preferable to the cult-variety ). I think the former category are often not good teachers, and they are often not good with kids. And they can't take responsibility for a class, causing a complete mess.

Also, with a child that has some difficulties, it's sort of good to have teacher who knows modern psychology and pedagogy - and not one who bases his/her knowledge on Rudolf Steiner.

Anyway, what I was going to say was that perhaps you need to consider if your dauther has been left behind academically from being in the Steiner school. I know it sounds a bit crazy, being that she's only 9, but this is such a common problem. I'm only saying it because it could mean an unnecessary factor "branding" her an "outsider" in an ordinary school, and affecting her self-confidence, and also causing unnecessary stress when she needs to focus on the social aspects of school as well.

Sometimes parents have a very faint idea how much behind waldorf children are (my parents really didn't know the extent of it, and many of the problems didn't show until I had already transfered - I was a bit older though).

zzooey:

Yes , I'm only too aware of the academic gulf: a) because DD is already 9 and still is only in (or, to be precise, has just left) class 3, and b) the giant chasm between what she has learnt via the Steiner curriculum and that which she would have learnt in a state/independent school. Any which way we look at it,she's behind...

That said, I'm not unduly worried about the academic side: I think she'll catch up, it's just whether or not her experiences at a Steiner-Waldorf school have so predisposed her towards expecting negativity from her peers...

Hi Roz/Johnny
We've been away, so only just caught up with your mesages.
The fact there was no leaving, positive goodbye for your daughter angers me so much, it was the same with us, although ther ewas a rather desperate and garbled gathering together of one of my daughter's collection of things, and a pointed ignoring of me , and "fuss" of middle daughter ( ironical, since she was more or less ignored during her three years).My dd was slightly mystified by the teacher's behaviour.

Strangly enopugh, over on the Steiner thread here, another mum has just left with her kids, and they made a gift etc. I have heard, and other's that sometoimes they do a "curative story" written by the teacher, which I and others, feel can do more harm than good. I know of one terriblr instance of this, so maybe you got off lightly.

Johnny, the anger bitternessis entirely and completely natural.l I found expressing it on here actually, and also "empowering" myself, by finding out as much as i could about anthroposophical beliefs, extremely cathartic, not least because it made all those strange oblique answers and meetings with the staff at the school, slot into place.

Your stories of the other kids goading your daughter etc is absoloutely familiar; my heart goes out to you all; exactly the same things were happening at the school where ours were, and the answers were that the bullied children brought it upon themselves. it's karmic for them, that's their belief.And they manage to say these things in such a gentle smiling way, you believe them, when in fact , it is the cruellest system of dog eat dog, absolutely Lord of the Flies.

As a word of comfort, your dd will be pleasantly surprised when she's in an envioronment where adults and kids react in a different way; her confidence will return, and as she's not yet ten, I think she's still so young

It seems in our case the roles are reversed from yours and Roz's.
My DH has moved on, put it in a box, and is concentrating on the here and now of making sure the kids are settled and happy in their new places, which of course I am too; but the grief and anger is still very much there.

There is a private list you can join at yahoo groups, where you'll find you absolutely aren't the only ones who have suffered. The only thng is the ammount of time spent...

I'm doing all i can to publicise the situation at Steiner, but the press swallow the party line too.

The Hereford Steiner school has just got academy status too, millions of government money. The university people who wrote the report, called the Wood's report, about steiner schools and whether they should get state funding, are very anthroposophically biased, and it was a given they would get the funding.It makes me seething....

The anthro who hasn't eaten since Christmas, Good grief! They are way beyond weird....
There was a kid at the schoolwhere we were who looked totally malnourished, seriously blue yellow pale with sunken eyes who wasn't allowed to eat hardly anything. sometimes he came to fairs or shows with us, and had been given money to spend; I found him, aged nine, in the cake stall tent , cramming his face with iced buns once! Yeah- I let him too....

Betryal of trust, don't start me on that. The whole Steiner school way of recruiting initiates , which is what it is, is a betrayeal of trust. they lie, they twist the truth, they ignore what is staring them in the face. They behave entirely like a cult. And thse of us leaving could be seen to react as if we've left a cult too.

Roz/Johnny
I'm sorry I don't have time to read through your whole story now - I will tonight. I'm the mum Northern mentioned. Whilst my children did not have the same struggles as your daughter, I so recognise what you are describing.

Best wishes Janni x

JohnnyBlue,

I'm really sorry about what has happened to your daughter. Did you and your wife speak and confer with the class teacher before you put your daughter in the school, did you agree on what support she needed at school, and get regular updates on the situation in the class on a monthly basis from the teacher?

As for the links that Northernrefugee39 has given, you write

"Cor blimey!

I've spent the past 2 hours reading through some of the stuff at the links northernrefugee posted: it's dizzying material (and not exactly accessible to read easily), and I probably wouldn't have bothered before..."

I have experience of and have been following the group linked to by Northernrefugee39 over the last ten years. Here are some of my experiences and the experiences of some others of the group and some of its supporters.

I hope things approve for your daughter.

I have earler used another (female) nickname here at MN, but have decided to replace it with another one, as using a female nick name, which was just a nick name, as a male has upset some people here.

Best wishes,

Hello Roz and Johnnyblue

Read your post with great sympathy and sadness. I too have had a similar experience with my eldest child. We moved lock, stock and barrel, we changed our lives inside out, and isolated ourselves from friends and family in the process.

Thebee/Sune/Eva52 is a bloke who stalks the internet for anyone challanging steiner/waldorf/anthroposophy. I have been on mumsnet for the past 4/5 years with no problems talking about many things including steiner. Unfortunately this guy has found mumsnet and is trying to chase/bully/quote everyone to suppress and control the information about steiner/waldorf education. If you have seen the other threads over the last few months about steiner here (there have been about 5 threads recently), I can only apologise in advance for what Thebee/Sune/Eva52 is about to do.

Thebee/Eva52/Sune- You said: "I have experience of and have been following the group linked to by Northernrefugee39 over the last ten years."

From what I understand, Northern has only recently taken her child/children out of steiner.