Special school to university?

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Does anyone know whether there are any statistics on the numbers of children who have been in specialist provision who go on to university?

Does a specialist school place impede in any way?

I look at reports for some Indy SS and they are often rated very highly by Ofsted but expectations of academic achievement are substantially reduced so you get phrases like 'compares favourably with national averages' even in reports for AS specific provision which is considered outstanding. Why? This wouldn't be considered outstanding for mainstream schools.

I know there is more to Indy SS than academic provision but at 65k a year, you'd be wanting some decent exam results too.

Hi IE
As you know, I've home educated ds for nearly five years, having removed him from mainstream school in similar circumstances to your son's. He's now 14 and was deregistered just before he turned 10.

It hasn't been perfect but it's given ds the balance he needed to become independent and find a place in the world, which he wouldn't have done had he stayed in school where he was unsupported and uncared for. HE has enabled him to find his strengths and (crucially) it's given me scope to work on his personal development far more than I'd have had time for otherwise. And it's not just the time element either - he was way too stressed to engage after a hard day and simply wasn't capable of learning self-management under those conditions.

He's gained a lot socially because he's been able to learn at his own pace instead of being forced to interact in difficult circumstances. He is independent, travels alone to groups and activities, has friends. He's well liked by adults and unless you knew you wouldn't suspect his diagnoses. He even manages a range of work experience.

Academically he's thrived. We've reduced his curriculum to focus primarily on subjects of interest to him and I've used tutors where he's needed extra help. He has taken one IGCSE (Maths) and is waiting results in two more this month. Plans are he'll take more over the next two years.

He too wants to go to university as he intends to study science - he has considered some fields of interest and we've attended local courses together. I've been looking at college options locally for the past year or so, considering mainstream settings and specialist colleges alike. We're looking at a bridge year at an autism specific college (primarily for personal development/emotional literacy issues) whilst attending a good mainstream college (with learner support) part time as a transition to further academic study. Both colleges have worked together in the past under similar circumstances and see no reason not to accept ds in 2015.

Funding is an issue but the system depends on other colleges not being able to offer the provision he needs, and it looks as though I have that covered. I have just finalised a statement of special needs too, even though he's home educated and he won't get any practical support from it - it documents a history of need that will go towards the colleges continuing to provide for him once he's in their care.

You're wise to start looking at all the options early as you will have time to jump through the relevant hoops to get what you want and need for your son. If you think it would help I'll be happy to talk to you more about our experience of getting to this point.

More House weren't interested and said no straight away.

Thanks zzzz. We saw the 'sister' school to Mark College, North Hill House, and that had similarly low levels of academic achievement and disparate intake. It also had a padded room and no outside space save for a concrete basketball court.

IE Your description of NHH also describes the problem for those Aspies / ADS who don't require padded rooms etc but just require a safe supportive environment where they can be as academic as they want to be - it doesn't exist, or at least I couldn't find it.

DS went to the follow-on establishment to NHH - also in Frome post 16. He hated it because he hated being surrounded by his fellow Aspies some of whom had very challenging behaviour e.g. screaming sessions, meltdowns, absconding, intrusive obsessions etc, - behaviour that was totally alien to DS who was just an anxious Aspie with OCD. He had very little in common with them and he did not want to socialise with them - he wanted to socialise with NT people.

Before I get flamed for the comments above - they are his views, the views of an Aspie - not mine.

I suppose autistic bases attached to mainstream go some way towards addressing the problem but - and it's a big but - they do not fully shield the ASD children from the bullies and anti-social behaviour of mainstream. They simply cannot do that for the full school day when the base pupils are moving around the school - we were told this by the Head. There will always be the finger-pointing and the abuse from the mainstream element. Very few bases continue to 6th form so at 16 they are out of the school system unless they stay in mainstream and into the FE College system where A levels are now being abandoned in favour of more vocational subjects. Bath College has just stopped teaching A levels. It was DS's lifeline when he was forced out of mmainstream.

Being in mainstream school in 6th form may have worked when the anti-social sods could leave school early leaving the sensible ones to stay for 6th form but now (or soon) everyone will have to stay until 18 so there's no escape, certainly not to FE college. The future at post 16 is a bit bleak. Another good reason for home ed.

Perhaps it is not clear where to look. There are plenty of anxious aspies with no challenging behaviour at DS1's school.

There is also plenty of space - I think about 125 acres. DS1 started in the summer term. Despite barely leaving the house for the previous 6 months he spent breaktimes and after school building dens in the school grounds and swimming in their outdoor pool.

There is enormous comfort to be found in a similar community that accepts you as you are and values your skills. More than that, they 'get you' and actually like you - the majority of DC have never met other DC like them before and are used to being the odd one out.

The LA option of unit (really an access class) within a m/s would have meant that he would have to leave it in order to access the NC. Plus he would have needed 1:1 all the time. This was the only option that enabled him to take GCSE's and not have 1:1.

You know that you can HE but still you hesitate? If HE is the best option and it is 'just' a practical question of the funding then the decision is made. Will you still consider indi ss if the LA will not fund duel ss/home placement or have you decided to HE whatever the LA do?

Wet - DS sounds very similar to your DS and how he would describe himself. He distinguishes between his desire for his difficulties to be understood at school and his wish not to be, as he would say, 'doubted'.

He very much likes the idea of his AS giving him the focus of mind to be an 'expert' in his chosen topic and his confidence has blossomed massively since he has not been in school as he sees learning as something he is good at and that is valued. He has worked so well with tutors we employed to test out home edding.

But this seems to mean nothing to the LA who are only interested in what money comes out of where.

Keeping - there may be schools out there but DS would have to attend residentially and that would not be something we would want or him.

We have a Tribunal hearing listed so we can make a case for funded HE there if the LA start messing about with local SS. I really dislike the whole collusion of the system - schools and LAs seem to carve up deals between them about places and access etc. For example, one local Indy SS wouldn't even let DS pop along for an hour or so to get a sense of the place. Head said they would have to have LA go-ahead first before they would say whether they considered they could meet needs.

But what about us considering whether they meet needs? It's like we, and him, are secondary to the whole arrangement between themselves and the LA.

This head also said, despite school officially taking kids from 9, that it would not be worth him looking around until end of Y6 because this would cause too much anxiety. Well, she doesn't even know him so how dare she tell me what causes my child anxiety. I bet she'll soon change her tune if the LA get their cheque book out.

Sorry but the whole system stinks with untold pots of money sloshing around and virtually no accountability at any level.

One EP said to me 'it's more important to be happy' when I mentioned poor levels of exam taking at one SS. Well, fine, but the rest of our education system doesn't say that about 'normal' kids does it?

IE I recognise your frustration. DS was asked by one caring carrot educationalist if he had thought about a career "Would you like to do woodwork?" Ds said No" - he wanted be a geneticist. Her face was a picture. It would be even better to see it now that he does have A BSc in Genetics and 2 Master degree in science. And that was a woman who specialised in special needs - so prejudice is very alive and kicking.

And I also know the one way street of 'they'll decide' when in fact I am the customer. One thing I had to do was to find an Indie school for DS prior to Tribunal. Most would not deal with me directly - the would only deal with the LA. One on the south coast made me very cross as I had copied vast amounts of reports etc for them before they told me any approach to them had to come from the LA. Others wanted DS for 3 days residential assessment - but I couldn't afford that and the LA wouldn't pay - stalemate. So it was virtually impossible to pick a suitable school when the schools would not deal with the parents.

I think the whole damn lot of them are in cahoots with each other and the people being excluded from this cosy relationship are us and our kids.

From a purely practical point of view home education is the way to go. I ended up doing it myself for a while. You just pick an exam board, teach their syllabus and read the Teachers Notes to ensure you're getting the right points across. Well, it should be except the bastard incompetent LA managed to enter DS for an Edexcel GCSE Maths when they had taught him the AQA syllabus Maths - but that's another story (and to be fair to the LA they did actually sort it out in the 30 minutes I gave them before I said I was going to the Press ) - happy days!

The difficult bit is getting them an exam centre in which to actually take the exams as the will probably not make that available and I would not like to have to troll across country to some strange place with an anxious Aspie in tow to sit his GCSEs.

No I'd definitely opt out and save myself any further coms with the LA. If they want to come round and check each year - fine. But trying to get anything meaningful out of them is a simple waste of time.

Some FE colleges can now enrol students part-time or fulltime from 14+. These placements are aimed at children who have for one reason or another dropped out of school or don't want to continue in a school. because the leaving age is changing colleges can now offer a full key stage 4 (14-18) placement. They will mostly focus on vocational learning, apprenticeships etc but also include some GSCE and A level courses, especially maths, english, science, engineering, computing etc. Also lots of diplomas. So you may find by the time your DS is 14 that he could go into a FE college. I think this will be an area that will change dramatically over the next 4 years as colleges start to compete for pupils with schools. The important thing from the LA perspective is you can quite reasonably split the placement at 14 as its intended lots of children in 4 years time will be changing to colleges at 14. So its not a case of HE from 10-18, you could HE from 10-14 and then access a FE college from 14-18 full or part-time.

Thanks Agnes, the friend I mention whose son has done GCSEs is going to FE college on Sept and she has been really impressed by their flexibility.

Wet, I agree that it is such a waste of time and my life arguing with this bunch of idiots. The effort I put into that I could use to work more and pay for tutors etc.

I shall see what they have actually said about the whole thing tomorrow but it is clearly some load of bollocks.

It is interesting how hopeful everyone else involved in DS's case was about this. The lawyer said a while back that this LA were 'one of the better ones' and the advocate was full of 'its different this time as everyone is onside'. Leaving me looking like a bloshie old whinger. But I knew that bunch of losers are driven only by money and only know one way of working. I gives me no pleasure to say I told you so but I've been wasting my time for too long on the promise of liars.

Glad to see you won't be wasting too much more time on them

I looked into FE for DS but they would not consider him until age 15. Even then it was quite a battle (at 16) to get him in when they found he had Aspergers. Lost my rag with admissions and demanded to speak to the FE college Head and to my astonishment they transferred my call to her. She let him in immediately without an interview.

And they were absolutely brilliant with him. He was obviously the first teenager they had had who came with 1:1 support and after some of his lecturers took the trouble to establish that he wasn't a serial killer out with his parole worker they were fantastic with him. They took so much time and effort with him at a time in his life when he was till recovering from the damage that school had inflicted. For example, they only taught GCSE Maths and Science at Intermediate level but they recognised DS's ability and guided him through the higher level curriculum and let him sit the Higher level GCSEs. So yes, they showed incredible flexibility. They still keep in touch with him and ask him to answer difficult science questions for them

But there is a strategy at governmental level to close down the GCSE and GCE departments in FE colleges as the money is now going to apprenticeships and vocal training in FE, while schools and 6th form LA colleges are left with the academic qualifications.

Shame, as the FE lecturers who taught son had their department disbanded last year. I dread to think how we would have managed had that FE college not been there for him. I love those FE lecturers.

Got quite weepy writing that.

Aah, that sounds great. Thanks for that Wet

A lot of what you're all saying is the reason why I disentangled myself from the local authority/NHS and went alone. The system is full of faults and is extremely budget driven to the point where children's needs are secondary to the administration, as has been pointed out here. It was clear to me that he didn't have a future as long as the authorities retained an element of control so I knew I had to take full responsibility myself.

No special school would have met my son's needs as was necessary at the time we deregistered, and besides, he was so damaged then that it would have been cruel to force him into a setting that he was so anxious about, after all he'd been through. But we've been lucky that HE has been so successful for him.

It's worth speaking to FE colleges even this early. I started discussions with our target college three years ago and even then they were happy to listen - they seemed to like people with a plan to aim for. There was no 14-16 provision available then but more recently it has been offered to ds - he's not ready yet so it's not a feasible option for us at this stage, but it does highlight the flexibility that exists in colleges now.

Have you been in contact with Fiona Nicholson at Ed Yourself ? There's not much she doesn't know about HE and the education system, and she's very helpful.

Good luck with your meeting today - I hope you get somewhere.

Oh bless them - the LA's letter just landed through the door and they are asking for an assessment from CAMHS 'to assist with determining DS's longer term needs in relation to his anxiety"

We have been referred to CAMHS and CAMHS said sort out his educational placement - we don't need to know. It's the job of educational psychologists.

There was an educational psychologist sitting on the Panel who supported the application for HE so why on earth do they need CAMHS?

Bastards, just dragging their feet and forcing him to be tested and assessed quite unncessarily

You will find yourself going round and round in circles, trying to get an inadequate system to fit your son's needs when it's not equipped to do so. I wasn't able to make any progress with my son's situation until I accepted that the system wouldn't work for him and we were forced to go alone. We got no practical support until we went private - I know it shouldn't be that way but often it is, and there's a relatively short window of opportunity for our children and there isn't time to waste.

I decided I could either work on fixing the system or work on fixing my child, but I couldn't do both. He came first.

Sorry you're going through this. It stinks.

I totally accept that HE is the right option for some DC but I would just like to say that not all independent specialist schools have primary contact with the placing LA (like Priory schools). Their fees are also much lower. DS1's school had no contact with the LA prior to placement.

For parents to be able to name an independent school in part 4 of the statement, they must have/submit a written offer of a place from the head of the indi. For an appeal including part 4 the Tribunal will require the head of an indi school to complete a form confirming formal offer of a place. Understandably, the heads are unwilling to give such an offer unless the child has completed an evaluation. This is much more than an assessment of need or academic assessment carried out by the staff but allows the DC to carry out their own assessment as well as existing DC to assess the potential newcomer.

True, there is a cost to this but this is peanuts compared to the amount I have paid out for independent assessments and reports and representation at the hearing. I accept that the LA are not going to pay for indi reports they do not want me to get and I don't expect them to pay for assessment at a school they do not want a child to attend. ime the LA and the school are on opposite sides - literally, the head of the indi was one of my witnesses - rather than in cahoots.

IE - My guess is that they want CAMHS involvement because they hope to tap the NHS for partial costs for any SS placements as it would then be on 'medical' grounds.

CAMHS will not advise on any particular school and you have to push them very hard to get them to even talk about potential types of educational provision. No- it's an EP's job to work out school suitability - that's why they have the psychologist bit in the job title (along with Educational) - what a give away!

So the merry-go-round continues.

At least they missed delivery of the letter to you on Friday

Yes Wet, I am sure there is some financial logic to it plus the benefit of the predictable delay.

With an LA education officer and LA EP sat there at a meeting a month ago, you would have thought this would have raised its head then. The EP agreed a HE package was the best way forward and CAMHS, who had had a referral, discharged DS on hearing there was agreement on this. It is utter nonsense.

We will now have to deal with this via a judicial review -re-action protocol letter.

Yup, this is what they are like and have been like for years. They just run you ragged round and round in circles and when you challenge them, call you vexatious.

I suppose that, to a naive biased LGO caseworker who knows nothing about the law, this sort of practice might look like careful consideration of the case in the best interests of the child. Overlooking the fact that a child has a right to education seems so easy to do.

I'd stick in a formal complaint to the council itself about this particular time-wasting CAMHS. After all, it is a new separate complaints issue.

They may drop the idea if they think it will mean lots of extra admin answering the complaint. Worth a try.

Wet - last complaint was that DS had no OT for a year and I had to pay for it myself. Answer - he did have OT which was delivered daily. Go to stage 2. Answer - you never raised this at the AR in 2012 - sod off to the LGO.

This despite the evidence that (i) I wrote to the LA complaints team the day before the AR 2012 complaining there was no OT and (ii) the AR 2013 confirms we have been paying for OT ourselves.

So the complaints team, the very team that branded me 'vexatious', will do bugger all about a complaint.

Let them deal with a legally aided JR application instead.

And they have the nerve to write to me and tell me how well-regarded they are for their SEN practices.