Language for Thinking

[lougle]

Poltergoose very kindly sent me LfT and I have been reading through it.

I have a question:

The assessment pages have shaded boxes in the different Language levels (ABC) next to various questions.

Are those shaded boxes indicating that the particular question is not scored for that level? Or that it is? Or something completely different?

There is no reference anywhere that I can see, to the significance of the shadings.

She sounds great SR!
Often the kids who do well and a lot have more problems.
They often tend to dominate a conversation or an exchange which is a way of avoiding having someone else take at least partial control.
We aren't doing those kids any favours if we just let them bang on and on.
They have to learn to listen-both to the question asked and to the 'debrief' where they are given useful information which will help them answer it next time.

I can think of one individual in particular who LFT has really helped. Child would just go off on a huge monologue. The people who work with him had to be shown that this was not helpful and that this was his way of drowning out any two way interaction.
A few months into LFT he has undergone big changes (for the better) and moreover, asks to do LFT. I think he really understands that it helps him to regulate and challenge his receptive and expressive understanding in functional ways.

She is moondog... Ds2 has been seeing her since he was 12 months old and he adores her. He does things for her that he wont even attempt for me although the presents she buys him as rewards probably help with that!

She has also been a monumental help with ds1 in terms of advice and suggestions for who to hassle for referrals. We'd be lost without her.

The salt who covered her maternity leave was equally as fabulous though and when we bumped into her last year she made me cry with the lovely things she said... Apparently she'd been checking up on ds2s progress with our regular salt all this time and was so positive about his progress, it gave me a huge boost.

I know we've been incredibly lucky to have such a good team behind us

This thread is giving me such a lift, did the first task yesterday, break today then going over it tomorrow. The guidelines from moondog and all the info on here are making this something I can do myself for DS, feel positive.

It is also nice to hear other posters talking about the responses from their DC, good to feel part of a team! :)

This is truly fascinating, DS and I have been doing this for years and I never realised. All the analysing , and debriefing and learning how to listen and how to have a two way dialogue.
I've got to read that book to understand how our home spun version fits with LfT. I can only say that it has worked very well for us, and that DS is so much happier now he understands more about things fit together.

So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

Also knowing which situations massive detail may be appropriate in, and which situations a broader answer is indicated.'

'They have to learn to listen-both to the question asked and to the 'debrief' where they are given useful information which will help them answer it next time.'

So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

For a child who does monologue, yes, that seems to be an important focus. DS1's avoidance tactics are more blatant, plus he doesn't read situations very well. On a purely academic level, it was inference that kept him off a level 3 for literacy in year 2. Two years on, those skills are falling further behind his technical language skills. I'm not particularly precious about his NC levels, but this difficulty (plus a hatred of planning) is making him do everything he can to avoid literacy, or anything that looks to him like literacy, at school, which means that he's missing opportunities for direct support. His avoidance is also less than calm, so hopefully, LfT can help to decrease the anxiety he experiences in this respect.

DH is back at work, tomorrow, anyhow, so if he is calm enough, we'll do one of the assessments.

OK, I've just managed to do the first assessment with DS1. I did the cinema one, since that's first in the book and he likes going to the cinema. He was quite sullen, throughout and I had to press him to produce more than a don't know to some questions, including the alien and dog one! His answer today was "lots of things". I told him to pick an important one and he said "a dog has a tail but an alien doesn't"

Amazingly, he scored 36, which is just level C, but he scored zero or one on a couple of level B questions (eg, how you buy a cinema ticket "online", and the what happened in this story was met with a resolute "I don't know") so I think I'm going to start him gently at level B, anyhow. I can always shift him up if he's doing consistently well at that level.

Ourvye sounds a bit like dd2, who could not answer 'what happened in the story' (no surprise to me, those kinds of Qs have always been a problem) but who did better sometimes with level C questions than level B (she scored firmly level C in assessment).

The "what happened?" question is very open ended. Apart from his mood (which is now at lunch refusal stage) I suspect his problem is one of not being able to relate the entire story to me and we need to work on picking one important thing (which is something that others can then draw out of him in real life situations) rather than completely stalling.

I also have a feeling that his language level might be a more firm C if he reads the text himself, rather than relies on listening to me. That's very much an ADHD thing. It's also something I have to do with DH. If I need to tell him something, he has to read it in an email or on a note, or else it doesn't stick.

Again, just to say it's great to hear parents coming to an autonomous estimation of their child's ability with language. Obviously not everyone is equipped to do this , but for those parents who can manage, I think this is a great improvement on having to sit passively by for months and months before assessment by professionals in the hard pressed public sector.
For £40 there is an awful lot you can do yourself.
LFT has enough material to keep you involved in purposeful, carefully planned data driven intervention.
Can't get a better value deal than that eh!?

I've come to see DD2's abilities differ so much situationally. DD2 can have a stab at answering my questions, and the answers are logical, if disordered in structure.

When she speaks spontaneously, her language is really quite unintelligible at times. Or at least, I have to unpick the meaning quite determinedly. For instance, she just said 'Mum, why is it you have your family but not your kids but you don't sleep with your family at night time?' After a lot of unpicking, she was saying 'why don't you sleep at your Mummy and Daddy's house?'.

LFT has enough material to keep you involved in purposeful, carefully planned data driven intervention.

I meant to add 'for at least a year'

Yes, Lougle, so you have to unpick.
Next step is to model it back to her correctly.
Don't just do so hoping she will get it by osmosis (as seems to be fashion in some circles...)
Get her to repeat it back to you several times.
Point out to her that you know what she was trying to say and you will tell her how to say it more clearly.

That's helpful. I do that, but not purposefully enough. More in a sort of 'you mean ?' and she says 'yes' then I say '' but then she wanders off...

I will start doing that from today.

Oddly, I do it with DD3 quite instinctively. Probably because her grammatical errors are so minor and 'typical'. Also, she has the attention span and interest to hear my correction and instinctively repeats my correction to me.

She's ABAing me - she rewards me for my effort in correcting her, so I'm inclined to continue.

you know lougle that actually sounds simillar to the sort of thing DD2 might come out with, although DD2 would probably be slightly simpler to interpret but with some extra grammatical irregularities thrown in for good measure.

As an example of the grammar mangling from earlier this week " I have swimmen in the lake when we did go to X" meaning "I swam in the lake when we went to X"

When I'm in a regularly using phase I find myself asking similar questions particularly on car journeys.

My favourite ATM is *DS, what is the difference between a cup and a plate'

DS 'Well a plate is an un-curled cup'!

That is beautiful, Star! It's so true. I've never seen it like that, but it can't be denied that he's right

'Osmosis' certainly isn't working for DD2 . I have found that just modelling the correct sentence structure for her has zero effect, and it usually takes a couple of attempts for her to actually repeat back the correct structure.

Interestingly, whilst her use her first language has gone through some pretty bizzare phases it is now without these oddities without any dedicated input, just the 'osmosis' effect. So I guess its a question of degrees. Most kids do 'get it' without structured input, and if DD2 was a monoglot then I don't think the oddities would have been very apparent, but with a second language with limited exposure to 'osmosis' they are v. obvious.

DD1 (7) and DS (3) have had standard language development for both languages, so its not just a bilingual thing

Further to OurYve's comments earlier. DS1 kept up the conversation for quite a while, he confirmed that the Earth was 93m miles from the sun.

Later we got a little bit silly after I pointed out that his grandmother was quite small, he told me I was as tall as the distance to the moon, and should be careful in case I bumped by head. Oh, and apparently my head is the size of the sun, and my brain the size of the moon. There's some crazy scaling going on there, but at least I'm one step closer to becoming Marvin the Paranoid Android.

Wibbleboy is Mr Yve, btw :o

Love it!

'She's ABAing me wink - she rewards me for my effort in correcting her, so I'm inclined to continue.'

Lougle, this is so important.
Our behaviour is shaped and reinforced by those around us, even, if not especially by those we are trying to help.

It happens all the time and once you are aware of it, you can tackle it.
The kid with challenging behaviour who staff avoid because he hits them.
He gets less attentions so hits even more.

The cuddly chatty little child who is fun to play with.
Everyone rushes over to pick up and cuddle.

Think of the people in your life.
Who do you instinctively want to spend time with?
Who do you avoid?

Their behaviour shapes yours.
It is an intricate and non stop flow.

Love the uncurled cup Star!

Bumping to see how we're all doing?

DD2 is improving a little and actually recognised that when we crossed the road today, we were using the same crossing that Philip and Lisa used - happy days!

Ah that is lovely. Slight hiatus here (dd2 has had an ear op, we are all out our routine) we will get back into it in the next couple of days.x

A few people have mentioned this to me, where do I get my hands on a copy? having googled, all I can find is an expensive book?