Language for Thinking

[lougle]

Poltergoose very kindly sent me LfT and I have been reading through it.

I have a question:

The assessment pages have shaded boxes in the different Language levels (ABC) next to various questions.

Are those shaded boxes indicating that the particular question is not scored for that level? Or that it is? Or something completely different?

There is no reference anywhere that I can see, to the significance of the shadings.

That sounds like a typical 5 year old response, singy!

Just asked ds1 what the difference between an alien and a dog (6, ASD and ADHD) and he screamed 'i don't know!'. He then started screaming and shouting and asking me what the answer is. Dd walked in and piped up 'a dog is an animal and an alien is a ' and then ds1 shouted 'creature!' over her.

He's still shouting at me... 'tell me all the differences. You haven't told me any more differences. You're stupid, you have to tell me the rest'

I think LfT might be a good idea for him too.

I know Ouryve, she definitely doesn't have the pedantic exactness of her aspie brother does she! [understatement]

A stiff drink might be in order before you start though SummerRain!

Singy

I'm so used to it at this point it doesn't faze me. As long as he doesn't hit me or throw something at me I count it a positive interaction!

Summer :o

Just posed the question to DS1 - will give his reply, later!

Just promised DH I'd email him this thread.

Semantics (the ability to groups things according to certain characteristics) is a hugely important part of language use. Children start out with a shaky grasp (eg all men are 'daddy' and all four legged creatures are 'dogs') but typically this improves so fine discriminations and groupings can be made. Think of it as a massive number of circles, some of which overlap, like Venn diagrams, where different semantic groups share similar features.

ABA looks at this too and places huge importance on it. They talk about 'stimulus equivalence' and Sidman is one of your main blokes for this. Equally, knowing what something isn't as much as what it is really matter. This is demonstrated beautifully in the rather challenging aspect of Headsprout where the child gets the command

'Click on the word -/ If it does not say ---, click on the arrow'

You will see this demonstrated in PECS too at Phase 3 (picture discrimination) when there is a clear protocol to follow fi the child chooses the wrong picture.

There is lots of stuff out there on <a class="break-all" href="//Semantics.www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?stid=78#.UaY3IDVwbVQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> this stuff with my beloved Fun Decks

Stuff like 'What goes together' 'What doesn't belong' 'Opposites' and so on.

Moondog, is there a specific 'part' of semantics that deals with whether the discriminations are prioritised? For instance, it's typical of DD2 to have her 'zoom' so far in that she decided the best thing about a cinema is that you don't have to press buttons.

That would be unique to every person but very common for a child with quirky language to home in on a feature that was interesting or important to her, irrelevant of whether the world at large finds it useful.

I like her answers.
People I know who use LFT in schools say when they hear an adult having an amused chuckle, they generally know LFT is being done.

We all home in on stuff that we think is important and others less so (I remember my grandmother homing in on every seam/dart/buttonhole for example, such was her attention to detail with clothes) but we need to learn why the populating at large makes some choices-even if they are not ours. I was at the cinema yesterday and my dh and I find the habit of eating while watching films mystifying and rather slobby if truth be told, but we accept that this is what a large % of the population are into.

I suppose this is theory of mind territory

DD2's just said a classic!

"Mum, will you believe me this?:

When I was watching Acrobat Supershow on CITV earlier, I saw three people in one coat but three nack-ed and that scared me. Believe me."

It's so DD2 - in one coat and nack-ed for 'necked'. Bless her.

Ahh, interesting. So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

Also knowing which situations massive detail may be appropriate in, and which situations a broader answer is indicated.

If I've understood it correctly, that's nice, because it's not saying 'you can't think like this.' It's saying 'most people would be looking at 'x'.

Me and Indie SaLT discussed dd2 and her issues with relevance, and general difficulty describing things. We discussed how semantic and pragmatic areas overlap and link in with theory of mind, ie 'what information is this person expecting' when e.g. Asked 'dd2, can you describe a cat?' ... Dd2's response (aged 7yrs 6mnths) '.... [pause].... Unmmmm .... [pause] it's good for smelling'... Very interesting stuff.

I see...that's quite a crucial step, isn't it - we do so much of this stuff subconsciously - it's an absolute minefield for our children. Get just one step wrong and the whole thing falls apart.

Fun Decks

Yes, it's that subtle difference between those kids who learn by osmosis what is the expected response or level of info and those who don't do it do well.

All kids get this stuff wrong along the way, but those with SCD get it wrong to a greater degree, more often and for longer.

Do you know, DD1's school uses a resource called 'Rainbow Road' for OT. LSAs, etc. can use Rainbow Road to assess the child and then there are activities they can do that are clear and simple, to try and help the child. If they are struggling or unsure how to proceed, they can consult the OT who will either point them in the right direction, or give specific guidance.

I really think that's what's missing from SALT services. Parents think there's something amiss with their child. They go to some doctor, who says 'I'll refer you to SALT.' The message is sent "You need professional help" and instantly, the bar is raised. Parents then sit, helpless, for 18 weeks, except that the Health Authority has made most of the secretaries redundant, so the referral letter doesn't get typed for 3 months. That means that the actual wait for the child is 30 weeks.

Wouldn't it be fabulous to have a resource pack that could be sent to children flagged for SALT, with simple checklists for what to work on, and simple activities which can help whilst waiting for the SALT.

Also, some sort of triage system. Clinics where parents can take their child, quick once over by a SALT to triage into 'clear difficulties which require intervention' 'mild issues which need guidance' and 'absolutely fine'.

Something like that...anyway.

Anyhow - chance to sit down properly for a moment:

Me: I've got a question for you, DS1. What's the difference between a dog and an alien?
DS1: Hurrrrr. (shrugging) I don't know.
I repeat the question - DS1 says he doesn't know again and sits back in his chair, looking wary.
DH: It's not a joke.
DS1: Well aliens don't even exist.
DH: How do you know that?
DS1: Aliens are fictional. They're only real in fiction. They don't exist in the real world, though.
Me: People are doing lots of work trying to find out if there is life on other planets.
DS1: Oh.

He then started asking lots of questions about space exploration and telling us lots of facts about other planets in the solar system, which made for quite a pleasant dinner table discussion.

DS2 hummed and wolfed down his chips!

And this is very typical of DS1. We don't get monologues from him, but he likes to collect facts and he is very rooted in the concrete. Needless to say he's an athiest!

Nice discussion Poor DS, do you often trick him?

He's rather fond of jokes and I think he was waiting for the punchline. He's always had quite a sense of the ridiculous.

Yes Lougle.
I don't think we are telling or forcing people to behave in certain ways but rather, pointing out to them quite explicitly that certain conventional ways of behaving will lead to better interaction and outcomes for them.
This is true of us all. I would like very much to stand up in the cinema and bellow 'Stop bloody guzzling and throwing your sticky popcorn all over my feet. And put your damned phones away!'
Of course, I don't.

I agree. A speedy triage system would send those who don't need help off with some kindly advice. They wouldn't be clogging up waiting lists as they are now. No shows are a huge problem (as in all areas of the NHS) and that must be tackled. This is the disadvantage of a clinic. The child doesn't turn up and an hour of s/lt's time is wasted. In a school (at least one with many kids with language problems) this never happens as you go and work with someone else.

I also think s/lts need to be less precious about sharing resources and rather, encourage people like yourselves to get on with helping themselves. If I was to observe you all carrying out LFT, I would be offering a lot of constructive criticism, like I would in real life on pace, delivery, eye contact, intonation, response to answers and so on, but even if you fumble a bit with it, so what? Noone is going to die.

Better that than sit back and wait for help which might not be what you want when you get it.

I am a great believer in arming myself to need as little input as possible from the helping professions as I believe that often, the bureaucracy, admin and red tape, eat up so much time and energy, the outcome is not worth it.

Ouryve, we had a similar conversation over dinner once he'd calmed down it was nice actually. Ds1 is a collector of information too.

If you mention an animal to him you have to be prepared to sit down for 20 minutes looking up pictures on the net and finding out about it. He takes in lots of information but if you ask him a slightly unusual question such as the dog/alien comparison he'll panic if he can't find an immediately obvious answer.

Moondog, although the waiting list is no better here in Ireland I have to say the salt team are phenomenally generous with resources and ds2s salt has spent years fine tuning a system of methods that work for him.

When I mentioned LAMH (Irish makaton) she immediately arranged classes, learned it herself and hunted down loads of resources for him. It turned out to be the trigger that got him talking

DD1 has amazed me about her recollection of animal names. DD3 came home with some little rubber animal toys a week or two ago. Turns out our puppy adores them . SO, DD1 came running through and said 'Mum mum mum...he's got a warus!' Then I heard her say 'No, Patch, not stinray'.

She's a bright cookie under that learning disability.

Hmm..perhaps some sort of research on a triage system and self-help resource pack would be a good research area if I get on that MSc