DS1 internally excluded, at risk of formal exclusion. Help.

[MerryCouthyMows]

DS1's behaviour has been becoming steadily more and more unmanageable. I personally believe he has Aspergers (many many reasons, too long to list here).

He doesn't see a difference between adults & children, he has academic abilities way outstripping his age in Maths, above average in English, yet takes things incredibly literally, always has done, yet has the social skills of a tyrannical toddler...

Anyhoo, he has been behaving uncontrollably at home for months now, since September. It's come to a head today as I was called in to the school to be told that he is going to be informally internally excluded during break & lunch this week, and if his behaviour continues then he WILL be formally excluded AND will miss out on the Y6 trip in May.

I am at a loss as to how to punish him or incentivise him. He has nothing that he would be particularly bothered to lose, and I don't have enough money to buy the things that WOULD motivate himself to behave appropriately.

The school thing has kicked off because he said something inappropriate to a female member of staff. He claims vehemently that the teacher is either lying or mistaken. And gets VERY rude when spoken to over it.

DS1 is adamant that he has a right to know which member if staff has 'made these allegations against him' (his words...), so that he can find out if they are lying about him or just mistaken.

This is a HUUUGE issue with him.

I'm at a loss, because he says that an adult would have the right to have a lawyer cross examine the person making allegations against him. And that he 'refutes their spurious claim against him'.

Aaarrgghh.

Help me to stop him from getting properly excluded.

School disagree that he might have Aspergers. But readily admit that there is a VAST discrepancy between his academic ability and his lack of social skills.

They are saying that they have made enough allowances for him, and he needs to stop being rude, start respecting the adults around him, and do what he is told without the back chatting.

If I could fix that, don't they think I WOULD have, at home?!

No chance of a dx without the school's backing here, either.

But IMO, the 'label' doesn't matter - it's the fact that DS1 IS back at home.

If it is something else, I don't give a crap about being 'wrong', I just want to know WHAT it is, so that I can get DS1 to do as he is told so that any help given is stuff that will ACTUALLY help him to overcome whatever the hell is causing these issues!

Back at home = dxd and helped. Don't know what happened there!

Can't give you much advice but have you looked t PDA ? One of the big things is that kids don't realise they are children so rules for kids don't apply.

My son (query PDA) regularly tells the kids off in his class for doing stuff they shouldn't even if he himself is doing it (because he's "an adult" it isn't actually for him)

Why do the school get to decide if he has Aspergers or not? Surely at is a medical diagnosis? What does your GP say about it?

Tbh my DD 'fits' PDA better in most respects. This is the only part of his issues that seem more PDA than Aspergers.

(V strong family history of various ASD's...)

God knows. How would you approach it though? I just can't seem to get him to understand that he can't behave like this towards adults, and if I can't, he WILL end up excluded.

Which will put paid to his hopes of winning an appeal to the Grammar school (he missed out by 2 marks, but is 18th on wait list. He has strong extenuating circumstances, and a small Grammar is a better learning environment for him than the huge Academy he will end up at otherwise)

I HAVE to make him see that he can't do this.

School notoriously shite with SN's of any sort.

No other school with spaces. Not going to be anywhere else. Can't HE him due to ASD / Hyperactive toddler, my own disabilities AND being 'watched' by SS (long story, Ex & malicious calls) and being TOLD I can't HE him.

(Yes, I KNOW they can't say that, but that's a fight I'm not mentally able to have right now)

GP says he thinks DS1 is 'fine, very capable of talking intelligently' but has told me to write a list of issues that I'm having with him that concern me.

I've got a Family Support worker coming over next Wednesday to help me do that. Mostly because I don't have the brain space to do it alone. Too much else to do.

(3 other DC's all have additional needs & physical disabilities.)

Can you not request an assessment direct with the la ?

I know it would be pointless me trying to tell my ds not to speak to adults like this - everything for him is black and white with no grey at all, but our school make allowances for him.

Bummer. Sorry about that. There may not be a lot you can do to incentivise your DS, the school needs to recognise and adapt to his needs.

Are you sure there?s no chance of a diagnosis without the school?s help? You could go via the NHS, ask your GP to see a developmental paediatritian? Can you talk to your GP or health visitor? My health visitor came with me to a meeting with the head teacher when DS was being threatened with exclusion, and she helped push for an NHS referral. There was a waiting list (months!) but telling them that DS was threatened with exclusion did help to push them along a bit.

It may seem like waste of time but the label can help, it?s a step on the way to getting the school to take your DS?s issues seriously.

While all this was going on the health visitor suggested I go on an NHS "positive parenting" course. I was a bit sniffy but to be honest it helped. The course reassured me that it wasn't my fault, that DS's behaviour wasn't something I could fix because until he was properly assessed we couldn't know what was the matter and how to help him, and that bad behaviour in school wasn't something I could fix at home. So I took the pressure off him at home and actually that improved things, both at home and at school.

I'm really sorry you're going through this, it sounds as if the school are being really unhelpful.

Can you pm me your email so I can send you DS's emotional skills training sheet & targets? I think you need something similiar having seen EXACTLY this type of issue cause problems for my sister growing up and my own DS.

Basically DS is having to be taught to recogise his OWN emotions before he can begin to take other people's into account in a social context. Social hierarchy is also a mystery that will be explained at least to the extent he'll "pass" in NT society later on in the programme.

It's classic high functioning ASD stuff and the text book stuff to help with it is to be found here www.5pointscale.com/ (Incredible 5 point scale).

I have too many traits to be able to do ths work with DS myself, but it is standard LA ASD outreach stuff, and nothing special for a competent school to work with - so it shouldn't scare em if you ask them to use a programme like this.

I feel your pain Couthy as your ds sounds just like my son. Unfortunately his school adopted the same kind of attitude as yours and he was excluded .
bochead the 5 point scale looks interesting - I'll look into that.

Any good SENCO, behavior management bod, cahms prof or family support worker should have come across it. As usual the devil is in the detail of the implementation. DS had to go right back to first principles.

I'm useless at fluffy stuff, so for once just do as I'm told but hopefully another MNetter will be along to explain it properly as it's very commonly used for kids with a range of social communication, language and emotional issues.

Bochead - that releys on you having a good SenCo...

Ours is, well, as opposite as you can think of from 'good'. can't wait for the old bag to retire

Actually, Polt, that WAS my main thought, requesting school records to prove to the GP the disparity between his academic ability and his dearth of social skills...

Maybe my first thought IS the best!

Are you talking about my sons? Will have to warn you that one of mine did not cope at all with a lunchtime exclusion which is why he ended up with a permanent exclusion. He did cope with fixed-term exclusions although still dressed in his school uniform. And yes like you we know there is something is wrong so if it is not Aspergers please, please tell us what it is. We are going the route of requesting the school records (which should include behavioural records) and asking for a statement (which can be done for social, emotional and behavioural problems as well as for academic ones). At the very least this has got the educational psychologist writing up her reports so that the school can actually implement her suggestions.

Sounds very similar to my DS who was DX with HF ASD aged 6 (now 16) and has a statement for 1:1 support 25 hrs a week. I'm afraid it doesn't stop the behaviour issues. DS has been excluded internally & externally many times for his behaviour but he just doesn't seem able to stop it. He says he knows he shouldn't do these things but it is always a case of "act first think later". No amount of punishment or sanctions by us or school have changed the behaviour. He too is currently spending break/lunchtimes in exclusion following a week long external exclusion. He has one of the worst behaviour logs in the school!
We have asked for help but CAMHS here don't help with behaviour issues unless there is a Learning Disability too - DS is a top set student predicted to get 10 GCSEs with high grades. The ASD support service have not offered any advice worth having, and the Ed Psych has been as much use as a choocolate teapot. We are currently paying out for private therapy, in which DS is exploring his behaviours and trying to gain an understanding of why he does it in the hope he can stop. Don't know if it's the right therapy, but both DS and we are so desperate, we will try anything. Because DS is 16, we are not told what is being discussed, unless DS chooses to tell us - he tells us very little, except that he is finding it useful. So we just live in hope and keep our fingers crossed that he doesn't get excluded before his GCSEs. His 6th form place is in jeopardy, so we have had to look elsewhere, which would be a huge upheaval for DS, so the future is worrying too.
Sorry, but just didn't want you to think that a DX and/or getting the school on side would be a magic solution - we had always considered DSs school to be supportive - but at the end of the day, he gets the same punishments that all other students would get for the behaviour, so his stmt/DX counts for diddly squat as far as that's concerned.

Your CAMHS? seem closely linked with social services and CAF. So GP could spend hours then give up in disgust / despair if he tries to refer.

Is there a sensible consultant paediatrician who knows your youngest? Any chance of getting a referral for something not-quite-Camhs-like, and then mentioning both issues at the appointment?

I took a look at the selective school intake and admissions criteria. You'd almost certainly get that school named in part 4 of a statement (thus bypassing the w/list). I know you've no time, energy etc, but I really think it's worth bunging a request for statutory assessment in.

You'd have a good argument for appealing a 'no' and would probably get legal aid, and then your professional reports etc are paid for.

I'm willing to try ANYTHING. Just slowly. Time is not something I have for ANY of my DC's issues.

DD will hit post-16 education in July 2014. She NEEDS a statement. So I'm needing to sort that - she is too able for life skills college courses, not able enough for the 'proper' college courses that you NEED 3 x 'C' grades at GCSE for. (She's not going to get ONE 'C' grade). She is in the first year group that HAS to stay in education until 18. There IS no available, appropriate post-16 education in my town, and she CANNOT manage bus / train changes to get to another town...

DS1 starts Secondary SOMEWHERE (local Academy / Grammar 1 / Grammar 2) in September this year.

DS2 has been ILLEGALLY taken off SA & SA+ in contravention of the SenCOP. That needs sorting NOW.

DS3 is going through the dx procedure AND the Statementing process because he is due to start transition to SN Nursery in September / October and NEEDS his statement in place by then or he can't start...

There is NO support with any of this locally. Even other parts of Essex have better support.

The ONLY support I am being offered is a Family Support Worker attached to the Primary school that DS1 & DS2 attend (which is ignoring BOTH of their SN's). All she can really actually DO is help me to write a list of the symptoms that concern me about DS1, and a list of symptoms that concern me about DS2, for me to give to the GP like the GP has asked. That seems to be all she can help me with.

I WANT to help them all, but I seem to be failing ALL of them because this ISN'T a one-person job!

Lawyers

They're in Essex, too

And hurry up, before they stop legal aid for tribunal cases.

At the moment you'll get help to prepare the cases, fees for independent professional reports (not unlimited, but reasonable) and pre-hearing briefings.

From a logistics point of view, if they all need statutory assessment and then appeals to get decent statements, then they'll all need a caseworker, solicitor, independent ed psych, independent OT, independent SLT. Maybe independent neurodevelopmental paediatrician (Daphne Keen?) and/ or independent social worker.

May as well get them done in bulk , maybe the lawyer can get a discount

Lawyer may tell you to bung in any outstanding statutory assessment requests / SENDIST appeals re refusal to amend after annual review etc.

SEND will actually list all your kids' hearings on the same day, one after the other, if you want them too