What, if anything, should I say to this primary SENCO?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

She works on Saturdays at local shop so I have got to know her over a few months. Not very well, but enough to know that she is a senco, and for her to know that ds attends a special school. She has never seen ds though.

In one of our chit chat non-conversations, she asked how ds was and then mentioned that in her school there is a child with ASD in reception who was non-verbal. She looked genuinely stressed about the topic as she explained that the parents aren't taking the hint that he should be taken out of that school and put into a special school. She said that the school would really support them with that move, and spoke about how it was impossible to teach the rest of the class with that child being so disruptive.

Now this is the first time I have heard the 'other side' from a genuine and honest stance. I don't have any sympathy at all. I think the school should get the child a statement with ABA written in it, a competent TA and continue to support him.

I'm so angry about this I can't go in the shop again. I do however realise that this SENCO may well be as crap as she sounds, but is quite representative, and it isn't her support she doesn't know what the right thing to do is.

WWYD?

btw, I don't know which school she works at and she hasn't told me, and I don't have any details about the child or family.

(Wet here under n/c)

Nothing you can do Star.

She's failing in her duties as a SENCO - obviously, but if she's working in a shop on Saturdays she's probably not a qualified primary teacher which isthe least qualification I would expect to perform the role of SENCO properly. Without professional status she no doubt lacks credibility/support within the school/LA in her SENCO role. While she remains silent she keeps her job and doesn't rock the boat. If she raises her head her school / LA will no doubt challenge her concerns cos as we know concerns = lots od dosh flowing out of school/LA coffers.

It's a cowardly dereliction of duty. At the very least she should raise her concerns with the parents and point them in the direction of PP. Think I'd be tempted to tell her that.

Hopefully enough ignored kids in the class that cannot be taught will complain to their parents and it'll get sorted through parental disatisfaction.

Disgusting but no doubt widespread.

She works in the shop because it is the family business. Not sure she gets paid, though don't know.

I have no idea what you should do, but clearly she shouldn't be discussing him with her shop customers anyway! I am so interested to hear views on this. My son is asd recently diagnosed and we are getting a statement. School had a good go at pushing me to say I will move him to special some months' ago though suddenly went very quiet after I told them about my hour long chat with a children's sen charity to understand my position better. Having said that, maybe my son would be better off in special? Not sure. Paed who diagnosed told me no reason why he shouldn't have his needs met in ms. All very confusing. What I do know is I don't feel the same about the school anymore! (understatement). I honestly don't know what my view about it is anymore! Hope you get lots of replies.

I think she thinks I'm a 'sensible' SEN parent because ds is in a special school.

My views are that he shouldn't be in a special school, - but his chances of appropriate support, despite being cheap and easy to implement, are zero. In my mind it isn't HIS capabilities that prevent a mainstream education, but those of most mainstream staff and their attitudes.

A very similar situation I know of is where the parent knows there is a problem, but considers it 'manageable' at home.
School have tried the SA and statement approach via the LEA, but LEA 'listen' to parent's viewpoint, which is that the school is over the road, so It's easy to get to.
School staff worried that they are failing massively in the DCs education - at best childminders.
LEA gone against EP's report saying that he needs SS.
This took nearly 2 years to resolve - with the LEA fighting the school all the way and the parent just shrugging their shoulders.
It was the school that wanted a good education for the DC - no other party thought that this was necessary.
Wasn't the first case like this, won't be the last.
What we sometimes have to remember is that on this board we expect the best education for our DCs that we can get. Most of us have some fighting to do.
There are unfortunately parents out there who for whatever reason, don't feel the same way. That is when you hope that 'the system' works and catches these children. In reality, the LEA will only 'catch' those it wants to finance.
Money is the root of all evil!

'What we sometimes have to remember is that on this board we expect the best education for our DCs that we can get'

I don't think that is true aunt. I think that what drives most of us here is not getting the 'best' education, but the fear of what an inadequate education will bring for the future of our children.

1 in 5 children with HFA have attempted or succeeded at suicide before their 25th birthday. THAT is what drives ME.

I agree Star. it horrifies me to think what would have happened to DS if I had not have done what I had done. He would have been out of school for certain and his propensity to depression and anxiety is so high, it is a constant battle.

No one is suggesting that these parents don't care - the SENCO is saying they won't take the hint and bugger off to special school. Star has experience of this school's set up and knows this school simply hasn't got the skills or inclination to support this child.

But does that mean he needs a special school? Perhaps the parents don't think so.

My son's last school fought me every step of the way in my battle for more hours and more professional support for him to help support him in mainstream. They used the argument that he was fine and didn't need it. Had I said I wanted him in a special school they would have supported me in a flash?

Sadly some schools see special schools as dumping grounds for the kids they can't be arsed with.

Poor woman, she thinks you are one of the tame ones

That's the funniest thing I've read all week. I remember her when she was quite tame but that didn't last long (WetAugust n/c ing)

I don't think wanting your child at local school is just about convenience. It is also about them being part of local community. I find the thought of putting my five year old on a bus to another part of town while I play happy families taking my other acceptable child into local school pretty heartbreaking. In my case I will probably end up being one of the 'tame' ones for an easy life but there is a part of me that wants to dig my heels in and stand up for my child and other children's rights really. Sadly Starlight I think what the SENCo says to you is probably what most people think and say behind closed doors away from SN parents. Out of interest, what made you choose special school. I sill have a decision to make in the near future.

Starlight sorry just read your post which explains it perfectly. Yes I think that's where I am headed. I don't know if I have it in me to fight to keep him where he is. The powers that be have shown me that they don't want to do it even though they are and they can. I just don't feel the same anymore. Very sad.

"I find the thought of putting my five year old on a bus to another part of town while I play happy families taking my other acceptable child into local school pretty heartbreaking."

Without wishing to be militant and bun-fighty, I have to give the other side to this scenario.

I bused my four year old to a completely different town, while I take my other children to a local school/local preschool. She's half way through her 3rd year there now.

Why? Because for her:

-It is an environment where she thrives.
-It is an environment where she is a success story, not a failure.

-It is an environment where every step of progress is noted, celebrated and built upon.

-It is an environment where every minute is learning time - even at playtimes, the staff are rotated so that they take play duty and part of their role is to provide activities that enhance learning which children may choose to access.

-It is an environment where 'reasonable' adaptations are made for each and every child. For instance, because she is a slow eater, she is sent to the dinner hall early, so that she can eat her whole meal but still go to play with her friends.
-It is an environment where she has peers. Not children who mollycoddle and babysit her. Not children who 'look after' her. Friends. She went to softplay with her 'boyfriend' yesterday. He has ASD. She has squiffy brain. They are equals.
-It is an environment where she is given responsibility. Much is expected of her. She is expected to be as independent as her needs allow her.
-It is an environment where every child is considered against the other children to make sure that they will compliment each other in class. Her class have, largely, been together 2 years now. They have bonded, they are a unit. Even one boy who DD1 found quite difficult at first (he had quite a lot of outbursts and DD1 was scared) is now her friend and spoken of fondly.

The thought of sending her to her local school in order to play 'happy families' is much worse than the thought of sending her on a bus to an appropriate school where she can thrive.

Her bus, incidentally, is one of her favourite parts of the day. The escorts become 'family' to the children.

Thanks Lougle, not bun fighty at all, I appreciate another view. I haven't got a fixed view on it, I flit between different opinions, it's hard when you are near the point of making a decision. I am definitely not anti special school, I suppose I just feel sad that we need them. It's nice to hear that it can work well :-)

I will second Lougle wrt most of her post, though I think our children have different needs and I still do believe ds could have been educated in mainstream school if only mainstream schools actually did what they say they do and are supposed to do, - but also the taxi thing.

The taxi was what frightened me most but is actually the thing that gets ds to school in more ways than one. There are 7 children on the bus and they are all older than him. They indulge his obsessions and tell him jokes and he is always happy to see the other children in the mornings. It's his favourite part of the day and he gets to school happy, and he returns home having had his playful 'down-time'.

BUT, I would also add, as those have before me, that the 'special placement' was chosen very carefully, and isn't just 'any ole placement to keep him out of a mainstream enironment for other peoples convenience. Special schools vary considerably. From what Lougle has written it seems her dd's is perfect for her. DS' isn't perfect, but it is safe, he's happy there and he's learning. I saw many special schools where that wouldn't have happened.

And wrt 'tame'. LOL....

I really was. If I hadn't had loads of my posts deleted (directly due to losing my tameness) I could link you to my first ones on this board, where I was simply 'confused' as to why no-one seemed to be helping my ds.

Thanks ladies. I an visiting schools next week and your comments are v helpful. You are clearly a few years ahead of me and less emotional lol. The taxi thing is key as one of the schools is on the other side of town, I would struggle to make it on time and drop off my other child. The other school is nearer and it is probably do-able but I don't want to base my decision on that really. Sorry Starlight I have hijacked your post! I still agree with the principle about ms support though!

LimboLil my blood ran cold at the thought of sending her to school on a bus. I cried about it. Hindsight is 20:20

In fact, if I may indulge myself, I'll share a story I've shared before, which illustrates my 'awakening' WRT to DD1:

DD1's school is a 'Learning Disability' school. It takes everything from PMLD, SLD, MLD, ASD and a smattering of complex medical needs also. Consequently, many children use wheelchairs, kaye walkers, standers, etc., although equally, lots walk. Many are non-verbal, minimally verbal, speech and language delayed, PECS users, Makaton signers, etc., although equally lots are verbal....you get the drift.

Sports day at DD1's school isn't 'typical'. It's more of a 'have-a-go' day and they have stations set up which the children are taken to and try out the activity.

So...the story.

DD1 was in a queue to try 'hockey'. The activity was to use a hockey stick to try and get a ball into a net. The girl in front of DD1 was mobile, verbal and looked 'normal'. Yet, when she picked up the hockey stick, it rolled around in her hand. She didn't have the fine motor skills to hold it straight or upright. The end just rotated 360 degrees every time she approached the ball. With help, she managed, eventually.

I stood there, watching her. I thought to myself 'Poor love. See...how fortunate is DD1? Despite all her 'squiffiness' there are children so much worse out there.... In my defence, it is quite overwhelming realising the SN world is so big.

Anyhow..

DD1's turn came. She strode up to the net. My 'able' child who probably shouldn't be there anyway again. As she picked up the stick, I stood, open jawed, watching. The stick rotated 360 degrees every time she tried to hit the ball She was no different to the girl in front. It was my perception - I'm used to DD1 with all her little squiffies. I don't see her as 'Special' until I see her doing something that is outside her usual range. Then, suddenly, I realise that she's just the same as the rest of them.

I've gone on a bit...but at the end of the day, perception is a funny thing.

I am between the two positions. I loved my boy going to the same school as his big sister, I firmly believe in mainstream inclusion and I wanted my boy to learn about mainstream life. Plus, and it's a big plus, the default special school my boy would have been sent to is at the opposite end of the spectrum from Lougle's school. It is a dumping ground, claims to cater for every SN going, and is in fact just glorified pre-18 child-minding.i have seen many similar round here. When I told the previous head there that my boy had 2 or 3 words she said "don't send him here then". Needless to say, her honest approach did not endear her to the LA and she was briskly "retired".

When it became clear that my boy could no longer cope in mainstream, I cried a lot.

I then had to fight viciously to get him a decent SS. I had to sacrifice transport to do so, thereby giving myself 2 hours driving time in the car each day.

There are pros and cons to both. The pressure on me of taking my boy every day to ms was pretty large - never knowing when they were going to call you in after a meltdown, feeling out of place in the playground - though actually the mums were all pretty nice round here.

Now he is at SS I have no suh worries. There is no school-gate chat. No phone calls home, he is correctly placed.

But, and this may be controversial, the expectations are lower at SS. They give up quicker, he is not pulled along in the slipstream of the NC (albeit at the P levels). They jump off academia and onto "life skills" too quickly imho. And I know that's not the case at schools which cater for hf kids, but think it may be so for many schools below that.

I would have kept him in mainstream if I could, and will never regret his 4 years there - invaluable I feel. And I do have the example of a very hf autistic DSd who has thrived in that environment and is now doing A levels.

Anyway, just one opinion.

And btw when I talk about academics, I am not expecting my boy to be reading Homer in the original Greek. The p scales cover such a range of skills - from listening and talking right through to social.

"But, and this may be controversial, the expectations are lower at SS. They give up quicker, he is not pulled along in the slipstream of the NC (albeit at the P levels)."

That's interesting, sickof. I had a discussion with DD1's teacher last week. She's ex-'inclusive mainstream'. We were talking about handwriting. DD1 has poor fine motor skills but they still persist with writing. She was saying that at MS they would already have given up on hand writing for DD1, but here they would introduce media but persist with writing.

It just shows that there is no consistency. Anywhere...perhaps that's the biggest 'crime' of the SN provision.

DD1 has reached the heady heights of 1c for Maths, apparently

It's the exact opposite for me Lougle - funniy enough on the same topic. The SS don't really expect his handwriting to progress and don't even bring it up in parents meets any more - I do! I think you lucked out on your school. Would you tell me where it is in a PM?

Lougle totally get what you say about perspective. I have had two sets of friends this week. Boy A undisguised, probably aspergers but I am guessing there but left me feeling how difficult I have it. Yesterday boy b diagnosed,nonverbal and again I am guessing but prob low functioning and left me feeling for goodness sake,pull yourself together woman you have it easy (not that iget any pleasure from that) but they all need support, they all have needs. I am the same, my boy's quirks fly over my head! He is just himself. Playground is ghastly, no one horrid but I am isolated from other mums and the closer I get to moving him the less inclined I am to address that! School trip, kept him home, Xmas play, kept him home. These are the down sides.