another S&L question

[lougle]

Is it normal for a child to substitute something completely random in place of a word they can't remember?

I said to DD2, "You've got a big curl in your hair." when she'd got out of bed. She asked to feel it, then said "Is it 'cuplax'? then shook her head and said 'cutlox....you know that thing where DD3 gets really big hair."

She was thinking of bed-head.

I, of course, don't know what's normal for a 5 year old.

Bump for the evening crowd.

Lougle, while it doesnt ring any bells, DS would use an 'odd' word, in the right context.
So for example, he might say, 'I feel fatigued' instead of saying he was tired IYSWIM?

Dd3 didnt really make up words but she would give a round about discription of what the word was, iyswim eg, when she was once shown a picture of some cutlery she said "urm, you eat with them"

Slightly different I know but it still sounds like word finding, if your dd cant think of the word she just says something. I could be talking c..p though

Yes, DD1 does this still. She's better than she was - she used to say 'it pink and weeeeeee' and we had to work out she was talking about a slide!

I wonder if you're right. Perhaps she knew it wasn't the right word, but doesn't realise that she can just describe it, so she gives a made up word (or even what she genuinely thinks is the word) until I say 'wait a minute.....'?

My dd2 did that only very occasionally though, it was like she would skip the 'what is that word?' Stage. As I say, this was not a frequent occurrence. She would also go for similar words e.g. Sandpit for beach, mostly for less common vocab.

Not sure if that helps, as dd2 has had (and still has some language issues)

Sorry to hear you have a poorly house, zzzzz

Ooh thanks! I don't think that aphasia would fit, because that's an absence of words, isn't it...but dysphasia might be worth a look.

It just seemed a really odd set of phonemes to combine. I'd understand if she'd said 'bidbed' or 'bidmid' or something vaguely comparable, but to use a word like 'cuplax' which you'd never hear in normal use...it was just odd.

I'll probably still be posting when she's 16 when everyone else says she's fine.

Phonologically it isn't an odd set of phonemes to combine
(think of words like Complan, complex) but semantically it is curious because there is no such word, or more precised no arrangement of phonemes of this sort to convey a recognised meaning.

My advice would be to worry less about spurious labels which will end up being a 'How many angels can dance on a pinhead' sort of discussion and more on how to address such issues.

And I don't mean to sound dismissive of your very helpful and informed contributions either Zzzz.
It is just that obsessive discussion of what label to use is endemic in the 'helping' professions and it does nothing ultimately to help families and children.

I remember a psych once triumphanlty announcing to me that she was going to diagnose a child with PDA. I asked her how this would be of practical help to this family and she looked absolutely stunned.

I can't help but think what is the purpose of obsessing over labels (and even the so called experts can't agree-what I call one thing might be considered differently by a colleague) because these things are not black and white like measles or chicken pox.

What is far more helpful is to define the key issues causing concern in clear jargon free language and then devise an intervention that is described in clear jargon free language and designed to be able to measure progress.

As a parent of a child with communication issues I would be very angry indeed and utterly reject any effort by any professional to label her issues. (As an aside, I don't let anyone near her-I don't trust anyone enough apart from her teaching staff and the handpicked few that I choose to wrok with.)

You're both right...I suppose I'm concerned that if I try and address it before it's even been recognised, then I could be doing things incorrectly and I'll be only trying to address a small part of the bigger picture.

Perhaps I just need to be more patient. I don't care what label could be attributed, but I'd like to know why she is doing those things. Although that in itself is confusing, because often the labels children get relate to their presentation and little is known about the 'cause'

I realise I used the wrong terminology, too - I knew what I was trying to get at, just got it muddled up. 'Odd' is so much more useful as a term

I suppose, Moondog, that as a parent without professional training in the area of difficulty, we seek 'labels' simply because (it should be) label=recognition of an area that needs support=techniques which address need=improvement in child.

At the moment, I'm in a no-man's-land of teacher saying she's fine, paed saying that there's something wrong, but she may prove sub-diagnostic in each area that is not quite right, although overall there is a combined issue, etc.

I have no idea how you fix this sort of thing, and nobody to tell me. I'm also scared that if I wade in and try and fix some bits, then the rest won't be recognised and I'll have failed her when she crashes.

Yes, I realize that I am in a unique position to sift through what is on offer and accept/reject (90% I reject). it isn't at all the same for a parent who does not work in this field and I recognise that.

As you say quite rightly
'we seek 'labels' simply because (it should be) label=recognition of an area that needs support=techniques which address need=improvement in child.'

Yes, of course! And in a same world, that would be the case.
But such is the insanity of the huge SEN industry that ultimately appears to seek little more than its continued existence, that this os much harder thasn it seems.

And all due respect to paedaitricians but language and learning issues are not their forte.

sane world

Perhaps I should train as a SALT - I'd be able to sort DD2 and bring some Moondog sanity to the South

Well, the world of ABA is full of professionals who started out as parents of kids with SEN and found the provision on offer a total joke.
As Gandhi said, sometimes you have to be the change you want to see in the world.
At the risk of sounding like an utterly patronising smug caring carrot, my own child's difficulties have turned me into a much better person in my work. Every child I work with is, in many ways, my child.

"utterly patronising smug caring carrot"

you don't sound like one on here. I don't mind caring carrots as long as they are conscientious and effective.

I'll never forget a SALT session with DD1 where the SALT was trying to get some joint attention. She was saying 'look at this book with me DD1.' DD1 was saying 'loook - up there...' and desperately motioning to a toy on a high shelf. Silly SALT didn't seem to join the dots. She wanted to 'share' a book. DD1 wanted to 'share' a toy. Surely the same session could have been achieved using the toy instead of the book. I eventually suggested that they did one thing DD1 wanted followed by one thing the SALT wanted.

interesting....perhaps she has 'small girl in a forest eating porridge' syndrome Right...off to find the book that deals specifically with that.