Anyone REALLY knoweldgable about feminism that cares to discuss it's role wrt ASD?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay. I'm not intending to upset anyone, and yes, I'm probably quite insane wrt this but I wanted some views on this theory.

Some of you know that I believe that stressed-out mothers, and inhumane labours 'triggers' autism in babies with a genetic predisposition. This is because of the hormone Oxytocin that is essential for bonding, love, social interaction etc. is lower in stressed mothers, and supressed by adrenaline during pregnancy and childbirth.

This has not been researched. It probably won't be. Who would fund it?

Okay, with me so far?

Now, I have read some alluded to statistics (not found the source yet) that suggests in Afro-American families there is a prevelance of just a sixth of the number of caucasions diagnosed with autism. In American Indians, it is half. These two societies are matriarchal.

I'll carry on only if I get a few bites............or anyone's interest!

No I don't think that if birth played a part that the rates would go down with CS. This is because for planned c/s the baby and mother don't get either the trauma, or the oxytocin levels that vb births give.

Also, given that lost of babies with ASD have difficult birth, it follows that a good number of children with ASD are born by C/S after a trail of a labour that isn't especially doing it for the mother.

Why the labour isn't doing it for the mother, I believe, is a key question. Is it down to fear and crap care, or if not fear, just not having decent provision that enables optimal outcomes.

re:pre-existing anxiety/depression in mothers - I believe that could be accounted for either by the mh problems being part of the venn diagram of intersecting difficulties that are linked -anxiety/ocd/tourettes/asd/adhd etc. or by undiagnosed AS/traits in the mothers. and I think the father's medical history if also relevant!

One of the issues is that it is all too easy to get a group of people with a similar problem and find a past connection - because the possibilities are endless.

So it might be try that there is a higher rate of difficult birth amongst ASD children (not mine though!), but it doesn't mean it was a contributing factor. And eliminating all other possibilities is difficult. If you look hards enough they will have lots of other things in common as well. For example, the majority probably had scans, perhaps the consumption of bananas was higher and you might even find that March was the most common birth month. When searching for causes, it is easier to imagine that some (bad births) than others (bananas) as they fit with other things that are true (some births do go badly with bad consequences).

And as Tota1Xaos says, research around fathers is often overlooked, as it is a presumption that it is the pregnancy rather than the sperm that is the cause of the problem.

I think March actually has been found to be the most common birth month for autistic children, actually... I pity the mother with ocd who eats lots of bananas and has a stressful birth in March.

Star I do hope you're wrong as my no 3 is due imminently and I've been crying about DS's ASD type problems for most of the pregnancy.

I'm with bochead on this. I would imagine that in a pre-literate society where people lived in extended family groups, people with AS would have been incredibly useful. My own DS plays fine with DD and with his cousin (well they accept and engage with his play style), really it's just the vast complexity of modern relationships that make life hard for him. My DS is not AS (more of that later), but people who can memorise vast reams of information, such as sagas and stories or the properties of different plants must be very useful if you don't have a smart phone to hand. And if those people were well known to everyone around them, then the quirks would have been accepted and hardly noticed.

I do however believe that there is acquired autism caused by early sensory deprivation. For example premature babies may be more at risk www.nhs.uk/news/2008/04April/Pages/Prematurebabiesandautism.aspx. I think there are studies from the US, UK and Scandinavia supporting this theory. Also blind children are thought to be more at risk of developing ASD traits. Then there's the Romanian orphan issue. Sorry my links aren't very well researched, but this thread is moving so fast I'm trying to keep up.

My own child experienced severe sensory deprivation in infancy and I'm 100% sure this is why he's presenting with ASD type traits now. The doctors treating him were totally focused on medical/physical outcomes. Intellectual development didn't come into it. And I, useless first time mother went along with them.

oodlesofdoodles I know it is difficult, but try not to stress too much. At this point in time there is no strong evidence of the cause of ASD and whilst many people do have more than 1 dc with asd, this is not a certainty. It might even be the outcome of increased awareness and use of services. People watch for traits more in younger siblings and thus borderline ASD children are more likely to be assessed.

The link with sensory deprivation is interesting. There has been lots of work done with the Romanian Orphans data, but given that they were physically deprived (starving/little or no exercise etc) and as well as sensory deprived, they are not necessary the best group to use as a comparison when looking at one issue only.

You are right, I think about the potential benefts of ASD in other times/places. I'm hoping that we can move onto a society in which difference is not deviant as well...

rabbitstew you weren't to know but that comment re:March mothers really hit home!

None of mine in March though ds4 was due then- lazy bugger refused to budge.

But see we know it's genetic in our bunch, too long a trail. More of a mystery for others I know.

OOdles research suggest an increased risk of ASD with siblings but actually the stats are not that high- IIRC it is somewhere around 15%, I do have the references somewhere. You do find more families like mine on here, not sure why, than in any other forum or group I have ever attended; quite possibly simply that the repetition of being immersed in the system keeps people here when many posters just move on after a few years. If you have identified a cause then you are a step ahead- and even if you find the odds don;t end up how you like it there is no guarantee that your baby will be as severely affected and certainly IME it does get easier second, even third time around. And we're all here.

There has been stuff suggested about maternal stress- I can see links for us there (DS1 was unplanned, very early on, and I had hyperemesis then pre then full eclampsia); ds2 fine IIRC, ds3 DH was made redundant at 36 weeks so well yes, ds4 OK within remits of this household

Still think just my crappola genes though and potentially a few things that could ahve exacerbated ds3's autism.

Tota1Xaos - I know about the March baby statistics because ds1 was a March baby!... and because I keep making the mistake of listening to radio 4 which in the last few years has reported quite a few items of research on links between autism and winter births; autism and maternal stress; learning disabilities (eg dyslexia) and maternal stress... After a while, the apparent obsessive researching into stress and winter made me wonder whether, to even things out, it might be worthwhile suggesting that someone research the dangers of being too relaxed in pregnancy to find out whether this results in indolent children who have so little desire for any form of routine that they never get anything done and fail all their exams at school. A lot of these children will be summer babies, of course.

My lad is a summer babe, his NT 1/2 bro was born beginning of April. Summer babes historically fare less well in GCSE's across the ability range of NT.

My lad commented the other day, as we walked past some local shoebox newbuild development construction "They want us all to live like ants". I'm inclined to agree and to wonder how much of the difficulties those at the higher end of the spectrum is down to current societal expectations.

The education system is very feminised at present, group work around tables instead of sitting at individual desks, collaboration instead of competition. The ratio of male/female primary teachers is very scewed.

many of us have complained about a culture of "caring" acceptance of poor expectations for our kids rather than measurable targets, outcomes and high expectations from the SEN profession.

If the birthing process has become to male dominated, has the education system become too female dominated. Do we need a more balanced approach to both stages of shaping the final adult?

If your theory was correct than twins would always both have autism - same stress in womb, more or less same birth conditions. The latest research from university of california shows that the rate of co occurance of autism in twins is actually lower than previously thought.

And also, know you weren't wanting to start an argument, but think your theory comes dangerously close to blaming mothers and I hope noone lurking gives it any credance.

Hi daireen, yes but physical exercise and food are some of the most fundamental forms of sensory stimulation.

I'm sure that my child's co-ordination problems stem from being immobile at an age when his brain should have been wiring itself up and putting fundamental movements into practice. With prem babies, they spend weeks and months lying still in an incubabator, whereas in the womb they would be continually sloshing around and moving with the mother. Total conjecture here, but maybe blind children, as well as missing out on visual stimulation are also restricted in their movements, perhaps doctors tell the parents to keep them in playpens to avoid contact with potential hazards. So if Romanian orphans were left in cots all day they wouldn't be able to practice newly learned movements, they wouldn't have been exploring different shapes and textures.

And with food, the first communcation anyone makes is 'wah - I'm hungry' and then 'wah - I've got a bubble of air in my tummy'. Babies who are tube fed (as we all are in the womb) never experience hunger, never need to communicate that. There aren't any stats on how many children carry on being tube fed longer than medically necessary (the medical establishment is in denial that it's a problem), but that must inhibit development. My own DS was weaned off the feeding tube at 18 months, so missed a year's worth of picking things up, manipulating them, trying different colours and textures and tastes, trying to eat, spitting most of it out, gesturing and pointing towards what he wanted, again at a time when the brain was wiring up.

With the orphans, being permanently hungry must be as sensorially numbing as being permanently full. They would also have had a very monotonous diet, probably given bottles of milk when they should have been trying out different foods and self feeding.

Nikos, the argument only comes close to blaming mothers if you have certain ideologies wrt to the individual/society.

I am blaming society and the lack of choice and control of individuals within it NOT the individuals.

And twins do not have the same birth experience.

Though the Romanian orphans, one placed in loving homes, lost many of their ASD traits.

Of course they have the same birth experience. You are being ridiculous now. They are exposed to the same chemicals within the womb and are usually born within hours of each other. If your theory had any weight to it, proof from twin studies would be the way to go. And the evidence just isn't there.
I wasn't going to enter this thread but when someone said they were going to link to another board I couldnt let it go unchallenged.

I also have been feeling a little uncomfortable that , although I know it isn't meant that way, this theorising is getting close to refrigerator mothers - eg "the bad birth experiences foisted on us by a non-feminist society mean we don't bond with the baby, and not bonding causes autism".

I am firmly in the genetic camp. My boy was born with autism, just as he was born with brown eyes.

I can't really see any feminist link at all.

No nikos. I have studied birth very carefully and twins do not have the same birth experience. Further, one is invariably more resourced/larger than the other. This is often the on that comes first and who's head needs to mould to a greater extent for being a) bigger and b) first.

I don't know sickof. the most widely held theory is that ASDs are caused by a genetic predisposition which is triggered by environmental factors. Well we live in a patriarchal society and most of our society is controls and built to suit the needs of men.

Sickof, I'm more theorising that it is the baby that is the refrigerator due to having been 'incubated' in a hostile environment.