Anyone REALLY knoweldgable about feminism that cares to discuss it's role wrt ASD?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay. I'm not intending to upset anyone, and yes, I'm probably quite insane wrt this but I wanted some views on this theory.

Some of you know that I believe that stressed-out mothers, and inhumane labours 'triggers' autism in babies with a genetic predisposition. This is because of the hormone Oxytocin that is essential for bonding, love, social interaction etc. is lower in stressed mothers, and supressed by adrenaline during pregnancy and childbirth.

This has not been researched. It probably won't be. Who would fund it?

Okay, with me so far?

Now, I have read some alluded to statistics (not found the source yet) that suggests in Afro-American families there is a prevelance of just a sixth of the number of caucasions diagnosed with autism. In American Indians, it is half. These two societies are matriarchal.

I'll carry on only if I get a few bites............or anyone's interest!

hmm, the whole male/female ratio thing interests me.

I do find myself wondering, sometimes, how much of the extreme divide between 'typical' autism (the non-social stuff; avoidance of social contact etc) and atypical (as seen in many girls with ASD) is down to society's treatment and expectations of those children.

dd1 is too social to be typically autistic. but she wasn't always. and how much of her social development has come about becuase she was not expected to be "boy-ish" (ie not interested in people, more interested in physical games, erm - you know, all the gender division stuff). it's a bit like the education 'expectations' argument that I know gets your goat, Star. she is more social (potentially) because everyone who has come into contact with ehr has reacted to her with expectaitons of social behaviour. because she is a girl.

hmm, am really going to have to htink about this.

Anyway. That's pretty much how my novel ends.

silverfrog My starting place for this was my training as an atenatal teacher, and learning a) the role of the various hormones and how they can be inhibited or triggered to the benefit or detriment of the labour and emotional state of the mother, how the labour is very sensitive to the emotional state of the mother, and that if being frightened is more likely to suffer PTSD or PND, and if she can, don't see why the baby can't since their hormones were as one for a long time.

Learning about the golden hour and the cocktail of hormones that floods the mother who has had very little intervention, and which the baby would receive IF the cord is left for a while.

That's where it all started.

I am very unsure about the male/female and I do believe that there are many more women/girls with ASD but some of the markers are not the same. It seems perfectly fine for girls to be quiet and shy even desirable. I would also wonder the depression/anxiety rates of mums / grandmothers and links to ASD. my friend son who has genetic chromosome condition which led to her sons autism was adamant before test that her husband was the genetic route, even he believed he was. She had childhood depression.

Have any of you read DR Robert Hare and his theories on pyschopathy? Now there I can see his theories tying up wonderfully with Star's views on society's changing values. Modern westen society favours the sociopath. I don't feel it favours the autistic at all.

ASD though no, sorry I can't. I think it's always been there - the myths and legends re changelings are near unversal in every culture for a start. I think that changing and differing diagnositic criteria across cultures have summat to do with the headline rates, as does the levels of child abandonment etc.

I agree totally with the comment about the person who puts the child up for adoption perhaps having the same condition. (My lad's dad's culture accepts the abandonment of unwanted babies, so do the Chinese, and to a large extent areas of India). The US makes it far easier for a woman to put a child up for adoption without being socially ostracised. We know that diagnosis of female asd's is often delayed and there is offcial recognition that many more females on the spectrum go undetected.

Far more children are being diagnosed as asd who in the 7o's would have classed as "retarded, hyperkinetic" etc. The language and criteria for diagnosis has changed e.g dyslexics were merely labelled as stupid. Black children were routinely not EXPECTED to be able to do as well as their white counterparts as it was believed they lacked the intellect. Teaching methods have changed drasticly - the asd child who could coped with a more rigid formal education is at loss with todays "group work" etc. The curriculum itself is all about opinion and inferences and less about standard facts and figures to be remembered by rote. Study of the brain is still in it's infancy despite the arrogance of various professional groups.

bochhead, I wasn't suggesting ASD was on the increase because society favoured the person with ASD, but rather because it doesn't favour the individual over 'society' and that this has got out of control and is an evolutional correction of some sort.

Sorry, it 'does' favour the individual over society.

If maternal stress were the major factor in an at-risk child developing autism, then surely there would be colossally high rates of autism in African populations where famine and wars are not exactly a rare occurrence and giving birth in appalling circumstances is far from abnormal? As for outside of Africa, I've never read anything that suggested that women of African descent experience less stress in their lives than women of other origins. Also, rates of diagnosis of schizophrenia are far higher in African populations than caucasian populations, and that has also in the past been linked to maternal stress in pregnancy.

And if stress were a major causative factor, then it would be normal to expect higher rates of autism in the general population post the first and second world wars, given the number of healthy people killed off and the colossal stress entire nations were put under, wouldn't it? And surely if society were becoming more and more male in its thinking, there would be less and less autism being diagnosed, because autistic behaviours would be considered more and more normal?????

Basically, stress in pregnancy has been linked to pretty much every problem children and adults end up with, including genetic ones (mutations which might not have occurred if you hadn't been stressed...). And stress post pregnancy has also been linked to all number of abnormal relationships between parents and children and disorders developing, because stress can trigger depression, anxiety, heart disease, blah, blah, blah.

Basically, I think to blame autism on a patriarchal society because such a society increases stress on women is a whopping great over-simplification.

Are you saying that ASD is evolutionary Starlight? I think that there are so many factors to consider it would be quite hard to prove or disprove your theories.
Some of the matriarchal societies mentioned have very different 'expectations' of their children. We expect our offspring to conform and behave in ways that not all societies adhere to. Their range of NT may be far wider than in our judgemental society - so reducing the numbers of dx.

Star - that's essentially Robert Hare's argument re sociopathy

asd and sociopathy are miles apart. One usually only suffers themselves while the other inflicts suffering.

On the other hand

Humans have become like sheep really and we are hurtling towards ecological disaster and therefore eventually our own extinction UNLESS summat arrives to turn us from our current course. The average human just "goes with the flow" as regards to society - even when the consequences are terrible (e.g the Nazi party). Industrialisation has increased our expectation of uniformity - diversity of opinion has become frowned upon. Political dissidents of all cultures who stand up to the staus quo are villified, even though morally they may be in the right.

However a small group of individuals - lets call them HFA's for simplicity's sake are hard-wired NOT to just follow the crowd for the sake of it. They also view sensory things very differently, (did some of them find the sweetest berry, prove a human could survive a cold winter etc in pre-history?). They develop obbsessive interests, ignoring companionship untl a solution to a problem has been found, (inventing alternative fuel solutions post peak oil while everyone else runs around like headless chickens). They see details the rest of us miss (perhaps spotting hidden hazards when we were nomadic? Or a new way for us to travel to reach an inhabitable planet in the future once the masses have exhausted it resources?). If it will take genius to save us as a species and we accept that genius is 99% persperation then the asd obsession earns more respect as a desirable quality.

Just as sickle cell as a trait developed as an evolutionary protection for some populations against malaria could it be possible that the asd trait developed as a way to enable enough people to "think outside the box" when humanities innate social desire to conform to the group leads to lemming like behavior for the group as a whole?

There are many potential advantages to humanity of having a certain percentage of a few highly intelligent thinkers who won't follow the crowd for the sake of it, but must be persuaded that to instigate changes (pre-history a new cave, nowadays risk managers of our financial institutions perhaps?) is risk-free.

Severe asd is undoubtedly disabling but for many with hfa - is it really them or the current "group think" that is the problem? In my own life DS certainly cares about others, it's the current "system" that makes him truly disabled iyswim. Full blown sickle cell is awful but to carry the trait meant whole populations survived in regions of the world that might otherwise have not been habitable for humans.

We the NT KNOW our current way of life is unsustainable, financial collapse, peak oil and ecological disaster loom ever larger on the horizon, yet our mindset refuses to allow us to change. Could the small group of HFA and those with traits be Mother Nature's way of providing us as a route out of our current self-destruct superhighway? Could she be ensuring that a few more of these independent thinkers be available for mankind to utilise before it's too late? I've never met someone with asd who didn't CARE about others, it's demonstrating that within current acceptable societal frameworks that's the issue.

Dunno if this is off on a tangent or not, but if it's a genetics mixed with maternal stress and if the occurrence rate (and not the diagnosis rate) is different in different populations - I'd make the conclusion that it was a genetic difference not a stress difference.

Is there any reason to favour maternal stress as the factor making the difference?

Many years since I've done any reading on this, but there was a suggestion that high oxytocin levels were associated with OCD, there seems to be conflicting evidence re:oxytocin/OCD/ASD www.autism.com/ARI/newsletter/103/page2.pdf.

How would babies born by elective section fit in with your stressed labour oxytocin theory, Star?

oops- rogue smiley there!

I'd guess that mothers have experienced high levels of stress in pregnancy since the beginning of time (think wild animals, scarcity of food, wars, all the biggies!) but the major (and possibly highly significant) change has been the chronic stress and/ or constant low-level anxiety that many people experience nowadays. Maybe because for most of us in the developed world there are less catastrophic things to worry about (hence we have the 'luxury' of worrying about relatively more trivial things). It's an ongoing angst that I've read is much, much more dangerous to our health and our psyches than the occasional massive stress burst.

Disclaimer: I don't know if/ how any of the above this relates to autism as my pregnancy and birth with ds1, my middle child, were the least stressful by a million miles

Of course I can't prove any of this at all.

But where would I start at trying?

Well, predictably, maternity services.

Women getting excellent care when growing a baby. Good maternity leave and pay. And good paternity pay and leave too. 1:1 midwife care and/or doulas on the NHS.

Leading to much less medical intervention and women labouring confidently and unafraid, and the disbanding of woman's-body insulting terms such as 'poor maternal effort', 'failure to progress', 'overdue', and the realisation that babies are born on their birthday, not on or near a date specified by men.

In answer to the difference between our society as it is now and wartimes etc. Well I think I probably meant anxiety rather than stress. In war times, anxiety was shared. Neighbours helped each other out, supported each other through the difficult times. In essence, it was a social time. Now it is up to individual to somehow manage her anxiety and to admit it is shameful.

I don't really know anything about Robert Hare. Did he explain HOW children with ASD came about or is it magic/mystical like the Indigo children thing?

(incidently I sat next to a crazy old bint on an aeorplane who, when ds was 10 months old, told me he was a crystal child and would probably have speech delay but not to worry because he was here to heal the world)

I had three stress free home births with the same fab independent midwife and only the last had ASD. In terms of difficulty the first labour was worst - 20 hours, massive head, terrible bruising, took forever. Second piece of piss 2 hours start to finish still had my trousers on 1 minute before he arrived. Third (ASD) 6 hours - think his head was slightly flexed as was long hiatus between 1st and 2nd stage and we think he just needed to tuck his chin in a bit - but def not stressed baby. 1st pregnancy most stressful as working FT. By DS3 I was freelance and life was pretty stress free tbh.
But I do not think DS3 ASD is due to genetic predisposition because there is not even a hint of ASD in any relatives. I have one sister who struggles with female friendships a bit and I would say she was a bit male brain / geeky but thats it. Never any delays or disorders. Everyone excelled at school / university. Just came out of nowhere which I put down to being older parents - that is our only risk factor and I was 35 not 45. I think like the risk of Downs increases with age so does risk of ASD so more people having babies later = more asd. Was some research to support this.

All very interesting. Hey, I'm from Gloucestershire! We've always said that the location of GCHQ may cause quite a few of the local ASD cases, it's chock full of geeks. Guess where dickhead works?

But DS2 was a stress free birth, fairly quick and drug free. DS1 was the stressful birth, stuck for 3 hours in the second stage (head not flexed) and delivered by forceps. He's my least spectrummy DC, though still geeky.

In my DS2's case I think genetics play a large part, eccentric relatives all over dickhead's family. And I have a physics degree. Though why DS2 is the most affected I have no idea. His genes (as far as looks go) seem to be more like his paternal grandfather, whereas the other 2 look more like their paternal grandmother. (My family doesn't get a look in.) But who knows if the genes that decide nose shape are related to those which decide autism?

Robert Hare studied sociopathy - that is people who UNDERSTAND social rules but have zero empathy so exploit those around them to their own advantage. A very, very dangerous group of individuals, especially in positions of power. He does not look as asd at all, however others who have studied neuroimaging have suggested similar areas of the brain may be affected in some cases.

America values technological innovation very highly - the classic "geek" is tolerated by the conservatives who normally love uniformity for the percieved value the "geek's" innovative technological solutions bring to the wider group. It's an interesting paradox isn't it?

On a more cheerful level lots of those at the higher functioning end seem to find that life improves for them dramatically once they get past the "sausage factory" of school and onto Uni/ a chosen etc where they are free to pursue their own interests.

I do agree with individuals being more isolated - I warn everyone never to move to London without a/ a few friends living within 30 mins on public transport & b/ a schedule of evening classes or similar in order to socialise. It's possible in some areas to live next door to someone for decades and never even know their name.

Sorry meant to add that even a generation ago a woman would have expected to have had her Mum & MIL within walking distance, to have had a lot of babysitting experience etc before she had her first. The formalised state support system can never be as good as that once provided by extended family.

There has been a fair bit of research recently demonstrating that in fact there are far more females with ASDs than initially thought, they're just not as frequently diagnosed, or as easy to diagnose.

Stewie,

I don't mind you linking this thread to the feminist section. I think that SN issues and feminists issues have quite a bit in common.

I only ask that if anyone does object later then you ask MNHQ to delete the link.