Anyone REALLY knoweldgable about feminism that cares to discuss it's role wrt ASD?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay. I'm not intending to upset anyone, and yes, I'm probably quite insane wrt this but I wanted some views on this theory.

Some of you know that I believe that stressed-out mothers, and inhumane labours 'triggers' autism in babies with a genetic predisposition. This is because of the hormone Oxytocin that is essential for bonding, love, social interaction etc. is lower in stressed mothers, and supressed by adrenaline during pregnancy and childbirth.

This has not been researched. It probably won't be. Who would fund it?

Okay, with me so far?

Now, I have read some alluded to statistics (not found the source yet) that suggests in Afro-American families there is a prevelance of just a sixth of the number of caucasions diagnosed with autism. In American Indians, it is half. These two societies are matriarchal.

I'll carry on only if I get a few bites............or anyone's interest!

And yes, ASD is on the political agenda in the US because some of the more powerful and influential people, who have fueled the internet/technology boom and therefore have money in their families have ASD. Not quite so here.

This is really interesting!

I think two-income households have been prevalent throughout most of recorded history, especially if 'income' includes goods in a barter economy. Women have not always looked after their own babies, or done so 1-1. We have far fewer babies than women used to - if you lived 500 years ago, you might expect to marry around 14-20, get pregnant (if you were fertile and didn't get diseased) every year or two, and you'd expect to have a fair few miscarriages, stillbirths and children who died. Your stress levels and your hormones in general would be very different from today. In fact, I wonder if hormones like oestrogen/progesterone mightn't be the biggest differences in modern society? Nowadays we either control these with a steady dose of the pill, or we have periods. Before the pill, women would be expecting to be pregnant/lactating most of their adult lives, with all the hormonal changes that implies.

Just thinking about it ... I am not sure really, I am fascinated about autism but very ignorant!

(sorry, that took ages to write so huuuge cross-posts! )

I suppose I meant that in the past, women did provide for their families, but they did it in a social way, of which their children, families and community were a part.

Now they are expected to seperate everything and the agendas all conflict with each other, whilst having little choice about it, because competition is demanded. Neighbours pitched against neighbours (just look at that thread on the main board where the OP says she is envious of her neighbours council house).

Autism is diagnosed by identifying behaviours on the triad of impairments.

These 'impairments' are Social Interaction, Social Communication, and Rigidity of Thought.

Now Rigidity of Thought doesn't mean being unable to think outside the box. It tends to mean being a bit of a stickler for the literal, and a little bit closer to logic if there are no learning difficulties other than the ASD.

Mmm. I'm not convinced there's that much of a change. I could be wrong. I think the idea of communities all looking out for each other and sharing childcare isn't always true. You get families where both parents go out to work, and there's no extended family to care for children, right back for hundreds of years, so far as I know.

I suspect we are more inclined to analyse how we compete, though, which could well be the stressful element, couldn't it?

(I admit, I am resisting the 'stress' argumeent for the same reasons given earlier in teh thread, about worying it's a way to blame mothers again).

Oops, sorry, my last post was a reply to your first, not your second.

But thinking again about diagnoses, I was reading Roy Richard Grinker's book a while ago about his child's diagnosis, and how he as an anthropologist looks at autism in the context of different societies' attitudes towards illness/mental health/gender roles ... I wonder if the same would apply to the past, that it is quite relative not just how a condition like autism is understood but also how it would show up against 'normal' behaviour?

I think I favour 'anxiety' to stress. I think there is more anxiety amongst women than before, due to being more isolated than they were before.

We're not a homogenous group. We set ourselves against ourselves. WOHM/SAHM, even BF and FF. We compare birth stories ffs and then beat ourselves up about our own. We have the two versions of feminism (okay there are probably millions), the one where we are as good as men, and the other where men are not what we want to be and we want to be valued for what we are, both thinking that the other is letting down feminism.

But you're right about ASD exisiting in the context of the culture. If you've seen The Horse Boy, you might notice that (besides the shocking scenes where the mother has to be flogged and then wash her vagina out to remove the bad spirits that caused the problems) when they get to the top spirital geeza (forgot his name) his advice was simply that they should make their son a good costume. Why? Well because he would become a wise spiritual geeza. The traits that he exhibited were celebrated.

I need to see The Horse Boy - sorry, I've not seen it. But it sounds as if I ought to.

I do see what you're saying about anxiety. I can't help being sceptical - to me it's too like the other arguments that such-and-such never happened before, and our society is very changed, and worse. I dunno really (sorry, no help at all - hope you don't mind me posting here. I just jumped right in!)

Ds2 was born after a difficult birth, was twice corded and had to be resusitated but I was told that the difficulties he displays are not consistent with the brain being starved of oxygen...

Had dd2 after - was an older mother wrt both of them yet only ds2 is ASD.

I think the stress caused by the difficult birth might have something to do with it.

Wasn't there a study which said that education of women has probably led to an increase in ASD in that the educated man, who in the past would have married someone else is now more likely to mix with and marry other educated women.

Watching this with interest.

Starlight It's late and I need to concentrate to read the whole thread but from what you said in some of your first posts about attachment issues you might like to read the article
Back soon!

Sorry, this article, not the article. Obviously, it's not the only one!

amistill I did mention the bonding, and attachment, but I'm not really comfortable with the psychotherapy explanation or the suggested 'treatment'. I kind of think the damage is 'done' by then iyswim. (sorry for use of the word damage).

                                        And whilst I do very strongly believe that a lot can be done to help the child identify emotions, and learn to interact, I believe that a lot of it is simply done through training and learning to compensate, rather than changing how the brain is structured. Having said that, I do believe that during the early years when the brain is developing the most, that early intervention and social experience can help it to develop a bit more NT-ish than it would have done otherwise, as the neural networks are forming it makes sense that the ones that they are made to use more regularly become stronger. But I don't believe that anything can take away the autism overall.

Lenin, I think your point about children staying at home longer is a really interesting one.

A substantial number of children with ASD are HEd. I sat in a meeting once with a bunch of HT who were talking about a certain school Governor and how they were a bit of a pita. They extended their discussion to the fact that this person HEd their child and they all had a good laugh as they agreed that that child had 'no social skills at all'.

Now they were quite possibly correct. But knowing what I know now about ASD, if that child had ASD, they would be unlikely to have gained any social skills from being in school either, and that most ASD children who are home educated are done so because their school placement falls down, due to their lack of social skills and the educational systems inability to address them.

Schools are institutions. They are not real life. What you want for your child before all things, is the ability to survive in the adult world. So what exactly is the problem with starting there? Why do they have to be amongst peers and learn how to 'share'? No adult ever shares the things they hold dearest, at least it's very rare in this society.

The biggest problem with looking at the past is that Autism still has a small history, tbh it is only beginning now with the advance of chromosome technology all we have is a history of dx. 20 years ago I worked as a volunteer in a special school with a small number of children with a dx of autism, they all had severe stimming the majority of children had a dx of learning difficulties. Go forward 20 years over 60% at my son school have a dx of ASD. When we look at ASD in the public eye there is a vision of Einstein or the rain man, neither of whom had a dx of ASD.

I know those stats about dx with ASD in non white communities. I did an essay of ASD DX for my MA Autism on that and used them.

They were American stats and explained by a combination (IMO and certianly I passed the essay) of access to ehalthcare amongst that community (I can easily send the essay on as I did cross reference the stats on poverty etc) and different attitudes to healthcare.

Squid ds1 attends an ASD Base and they studied Einstein and his ASD yesterday; I get why, they were talking about things that make you special despite a dx, but absolutely- there was no DX! I've seen his name claimed for AS (hardly if he did not talk until 4, breaks dsm criteria), Dyslexia......

Lots of research with High Res MRI scanners suggest brain differences in children with ASD* but the cost of high res MRI prevents that being used as a wide scale diagnostic test.

I am aware of the oxytocin research but also that something having an effect on something does not claim a cause, it may well be a medication: the biggest single factor in ASD seems to be a genetic history (will outline ours in a minute), but current thinking amongst most scholars is that there is no ASD as such (this is where the * comes in), just a great many conditions sharing a core presentation and they will gradually be broken down into groups of disorders which might help understanding.

Now my research is on ASD and empathy, there is some really intriguing research (and I do NOT mean Baron-Cohen's zero empathy stuff which may well turn out fab but is being sold in media as linking ASD with evil) and I strongly beleive that variation in empathic ability (not just level, type) are related to ASD outcome. Oxytocin might well affect this I guess and my MA Diss is being done as a trial study in case I ever get PHd funding, will be something I can discuss thanks. fab idea!"

Apols for lack of paragraphs, Mn seems to having a strange blip and I can't get any to work- and typos- SD ds4 on my lap wriggling!

Right my family; strongly matriarchal on both sides, but most esp. paternal- one of thsoe famillies where the men got pissed and the women ran everything. Still matriarchal tbh- me and my sisters- well we married some brave men!

DS1- diagnosed AS, attends ASD Base for comp

DS2- MS, school say ADHD, Dyspraxia, dyslexia- Gp says I don't do that wooly stuff so no dx's

DS3- fairly sever (verbal bbut will never be independent) autism, attends general SN Base

DS4- beinga ssessed for ASD; has dx of speech dealy but clear ability so fits HFA criteria

DH: severe dyslexia, history of depression; MIL OCD; FIL severe dyslexia; my Grandad clear autism but HFA so no dx due to age (94); Uncle high likelihood of AS, has been in Psych care on and off all his life, no dx that we know of but he won't tell anyone anything,first care episode following death of his dd; Mum no dx but says she is fully aware of having AS and certainly that fits her life so far and how it ahs panned out- eg high ability but no social skills or friends, struggled to keep jobs, depressive history. Me- kn ow i could fit AS x but won't get assessment as I know diagnostician through uni and seems woerd, hasbeen discussed informally with her though and also with my uni specialist who agrees.

*But mainly my point is that it's not going to turn out AD has a single origin- we already know that due to it's links with Downs Syndrome, some cases of retts, encephalitis,

so whilst there may be some truth in many explanations there isn't one universal truth*

WTF happened there then?