Neighbour SA+dilemma - sorry, very long

[figcake]

I have posted elsewhere and condensed so thanks if you replied - just need a SN angle to understand the nature of the beast.
I have a question on behalf of my lovely neighbour who is non-MN. Her DD aged 8 has been bullied at primary school for the last 2 years and it is definitely not getting any better or being addressed by the school. Outside school she is really lovely, friendly, bubbly good com skills - infact, people stop her in the street/supermarket saying how they wished their Dc was "that lovely" "friendly" "chatty"etc.

Because she is increasingly ostracised and bullied at school and neighbour complained on a few specific occasions, they placed her DD on the SEN reg as they insist that she has difficulties socializing and none of their pupils would have said any of the horrible things she quoted as they sound too "grown-up" and effectively accused neighbour of lying even though she is a very honest person.

They have really been pressurizing neighbour into agreeing to external assessments (and made her sign a referral form) even though she was dead set against it as nobody anywhere else thinks there is an issue and is more to do with the school (btw no places in other schools in LA as there is a shortage of places here). They have not relented and have now written to say that they will be looking into other official ways in which to force her to agree to the assessments they require if she does not comply. i.e they WILL take place

She has been talking of home-edding for a while and def feels equipped to do it but she now feels that LA will be 'on her back' even after she deregisters DD and not leave her alone as things are too far gone against her.

My friend came round today in tears saying that this was the most depressing Christmas she has ever had due to the timing of the threatening letter and the fact that there was nobody there for her to contact for discussion until January 6th.

The issues that are weighing heavily on her mind are the following (any MN help would be amazing and hopefully solve her insomnia and stress-related headaches):

Her DD has been put on SA+. Even though she has never been actually assessed by any outside agency, a couple of random 'observations' were carried out last year by EP at school. As soon as friend and school started to disagree on stuff a report was sent from EP dept formalising any contact that they had had with friend and her DD. They also wrote that friend had mentioned that her exDH did not really support some aspects of her parenting style. They have never spoken to him, he did not say that and nor did she. It seems as though they are trying to frame her and typecast her as being a bad parent especially with frequent mentions of how they are really concerned about her DD's WELFARE (word has come up a lot, sometimes out of context from Head Teacher - we are thinking EWO or worse - there were a few threads on MN last night that have really got me thinking).

There is an initiative in place in our Borough which involves providing a seamless service across various specialist areas. When the SENCO put my friend under pressure re EP referral, she presented her with a 'common assessment form'. Friend was led to believe that this would cover EP referral only but we had a look at the form online earlier and it is definitely seems to be about the parent agreeing to the school making the referral and parent not being able to withdraw this permission once granted.

The threatening letter she recd from EP Dept last week does make it sound as though the power can been taken out of her hands. Whilst EPs are over-worked etc. they are absolutely working in sync with the school on this one - it has been pretty ridiculous in that school have called Mum in for a wrist slapping, letter from EP Dept arrives in the post a couple of days later reinforcing the latter.

The SENCO is a bully as I may have mentioned and has used the longevity of her career to wrap the LA round her little finger in some kind of sick power game.

Even if she did de-reg next week, it all seems a bit Hotel California to us and there is the possibility that it would open up a can of worms. They are slowly painting a picture of her as being deluded, confrontational, blinded to her DDs serious needs - there is no independent opinion available within LA that would convince them that they are not infalliable. Despite there being a queue of people eager to access their input, friend is constantly being pushed to the front of a queue that she never wante to join in the first place. Would H-edding remedy the situation or simply up the ante? The DDs grandmother thinks that the only solution is to comply and try and move?

Sorry if I have rambled on without making much sense though we really need for her to get things straight in her head before school opens.

Also, can senco be stripped of her power to force external assessments to take place given that it has definitely not had a positive outcome. Would leaving the school disempower her automatically given that the DD has not been formally assessed (though did have speech therapy during early years pre-school)?

Hi Figcake

Schools have a statutory duty to identify, assess and support SENs - so if school believe that your neighbour's child does have SENs they are legally bound to pursue matters,

So the SENCO cannot be 'stripped of her powers' - she is only undertaking her legal duty.

Disenroling and home-educating is unlikely to get the Local Authority off her back as now the Ed Pysch is involved they too have a duty to ensure the SENS are properly addressed.

Your neighbour needs to be careful that the school / LA do not perceive her failure to engage with the process as an issue for which they start to involve EWO or Social Services.

Having said that, you paint a picture where your neighbour feels her daughter has no probalmes whatsoever (other than the bullying at school) and is being victimised by an over-zealous SENCO.

Is this a truly accuarate picture?

Children in primary school do not often get bullied for no reason at all. Is the bullying a result of her difficulty with social and communication skills, which sets her apart from her peers? SENs are not just about poor academic performance. A child have be brilliant academically but still have SENs if they cannot relate, interact and socialise with their peers. That sort of behaviour set alarm bells ringing and has possibly led to school wanting external assessments.

It's very unusual for a SENCO to take an interest in a case where noone but herself believes the child has SENs. Most parents on here are battling to get the SENCO to acknowledge there may be a problem.

If I was your neighbour i would comply with their request for external assessment - however - I would want an IEP drawn up that specifically stated the areas in which the child had diffictlies and stated what support school would provide to overcom,e them. The IEP would have targets for improvement and be measurable (SMART). I would also write to the Ed Pysch instructing them to remove the reference to the ex-H from the report. She;s entitled to do that under the Data Protection Act which mandates that all information held should be accurate. That information is neither accurate nor relevant and could be seized upon by SS or other agencies to portray the mother as the root of the problem - something we again encounter frequesntly on here. So it's important that misinformation is deleted from the records.

One way of possibly getting them off her back would be to up the ante and make a formal request to the LA for assessment for a Statement, indicating that if necessary she would be seeking an independant LA-funded specialist placement. The LA will be be horrified at the potential expense and will almost certainly refuse to assess for a Statement. the mother can then use this as 'proof' that the LA do not consider her daughter has these 'serious issues' that SENCO and the Ed Pysch seem to think she has.

Of course, that could backfire if the assessment did discover the child had serious needs - but if that's the case the assessment will have been the right route to take.

Ultimately, if there is no alternative school, the parent is going to have to work with the school or home ed.

what about going private?

Sorry - dealing with own domestic upheavel atm! Thanks for your reply - I just wanted to ask whether cooperation at this stage would then pave the way for senco to commission as many further assessments from various departments as she likes? From what neighbour has said, her DD is mainly treated like that because she is overweight and has one 'lazy eye' (hate that expression but not sure what the med name for that is).

Neighbour has said that she def does not want her DD to be labelled in any way as these people have failed to understand her and engage her DD as they should.

V useful point re misinformation - we will look into that as soon as the EPs bother to turn up for work next year!

It is sad that you indicate there being no obvious way out of this - personally, I suppose that I would persist with school as it would be easier to make plans to move on with her DD out of the house for x number of hrs/week.

The fact that she no longer has faith in their EP service is an issue too given their ridiculous lack of independence from SENCO - is it not possible to Home-ed as a (supposedly) temporary measure and put the offer on the table to LA of willingness to participate in a privately arranged, unbiased assessment, for instance? Presumably, they would probably refuse on cost grounds?

It seems that she must not be perceived as being uncooperative at any cost from now on. Any forced involvement of other agencies would be absolutely catastrophic for her - she would not be able to hack it.

Hi there

My friend's son was bullied horribly at school, and she was told the same, 'He has issues, it's his own fault, you're in denial about his SEN'. She moved him to a private prep school where he made loads of friends and flourished. The private head pushed her to get a very thorough educational psychology assessment... which showed he had severe dyspraxia. And got him a partial bursary for a suitable (and very well thought of) secondary.

So, if she'd upped the ante and asked for a statement when the first nasty school ignored the bullying, she might have avoided forking out for the private ed psych, and having to remortgage to pay for the prep school! And if he hadn't been dyspraxic, statutory assessment findings would have been of social difficulties in school only, due to poor handling of bullying.

That said, it all worked out well for them.

Oh, and she should write all letters in conjunction with her ex (and both sign them), attend all meetings together etc (having jointly agreed a common policy first!).

I would tentatively disagree with the supposition that a child is rarely bullied if there is nothing wrong. As countless ex and current pupils will know, bullying can occur because the child stands out due to varying factors, or because the bully is jealous, or simply takes a dislike to them. My older sister, who was popular, confident (or at least acted confident) with no social or communication problems was bullied for a while. And the insinuation, on the part of the school, seems to be that if the girl in question only had the right social and communication skills, the bullying would stop, thereby placing the onus on her to prevent it. However, the children who are doing the bullying should be held accountable and measures taken to stop the bullying.
However, this does not mean that there are no difficulties. I would therefore suggest that your neighbour approaches the school and asks them to explain exactly what difficulties they think her dd has. I would also ask them to clarify how these difficulties are not caused by the bullying.

Figcake - it might be also worth pointing out how many threads on here are about how differently our DCs behave in and out of school. Your friends DS might be overloaded at school and re-act in a very different way than at home.
Also what her mum might see as bubbly chat to strangers, might not seem the same to peer group 8 year olds.
Just wondering about the bullying too. You mentioned that your friends DD is over weight and has some kind of Stigmatism. Is this the route of the bullying? If the comments seemed too adult for 8 year olds to make, did it originate from parental comments made to their children that have been repeated at school? Girls can be absolute madams at making comments on physical appearances. If this is the route of the bullying then this needs to be addressed as a separate issue from the SENco route.
I agree with the other comments. If this road trip is going to happen regardless, better to be in the driving seat or holding the map than asleep in the back seat.

Just wanted to add my understanding of the legal position.

Parents are legally responsible for ensuring that their children receive a full-time education suitable to their age, ability, aptitude and any SEN, at school or otherwise.

If a parent has a child in school who needs extra assistance, then yes, a statement needs to be in place so that the parent is assured that the people to whom they are delegating their legal responsibility (the school) are actually providing said suitable education. The rub is, of course, that however abjectly the school might fail to provide a suitable education, the parent is still legally responsible, which is why the courts are not full of people suing crappy schools for failure to provide a suitable education.

If a parent removes a child from mainstream school, then any statement or proposed statement becomes completely irrelevant. In order to access the state-offered educational provision, the child needed a full time 1:1, say. Once the parent is opting out of the mainstream school, the LA will not be sending a full time 1:1 along to 21 Wisteria Drive to help out... So the SENCO would have no legal remit to continue to push for any sort of assessment. The repsonse could be "how kind of you to think of us, but since we have deregistered our child from school, and we will be providing her with a personalised academic and social education according to our parental knowledge of her needs, there is no need for you to continue with your assessment".

ommward - I think that she was in that position a year ago before it all hit the fan. Until I started investigating how to help her, I thought that this was the basic position too. Now that they have started repeatedly referring to the child's "welfare" and forcing their authority upon her if she does not agree with their demands, I am not sure that they can be magicked out of the picture at this stage.

But why is she resisting the assesment so much?

The child may or may not have SEN. No-one here could possibly tell - but the paedetrician is really not going to diagnose a child with something she doesn't have. Despite what the newspapers say that very rarely happens.

Also nothing happens quickly. She'd be unlikely to get a diagnosis of anything within a year.

So she is much better just having the assesment and chilling.

Although I don't think a school can refer to a paed or anyone useful - so who exactly is doing the assesment and what is the assement for? And why are they so against it?

Indigo... that's it! Genius! The school can't refer to a neurodevelopmental paediatrician (and only to the less specialised tier 1 or 2 of camhs). And the OP said that in her opinion, an independent opinion would be useful.

So if the neighbour takes her child to the GP, who refers for medical assessment (presumably for suspected asd), that trumps the LA system. And also provides a safety net so that a serious SN wouldn't be completely missed.

In your neighbours shoes I would, Write to the SENCO copting the heads & governors chair.
Stating that I reluctantly agree to a fully EP assessment, that her reluctance is purely because she does not see any problems at home with the dd.
That she would like a full copy of any report and this authorisation does not permit referal to any other body or for any other assessment.

Also that she is to seek the opinion of her GP & on his advice possibly a developmental paed for a full impartial opinion.

It is v rare on here for parents to feel asd diagnosis is incorrect, there is no incentive for docs to diagnose if not justified. My son went thru asd diagnosis procedure a few years ago and did not get the diagnosis, it is not inevitable that being referred results in diagnosis. Agree with indigo about approachoin gp

I have put forward these suggestions and unfortunately, friend is adamant that she does not want her DD assessed in any way, shape or form. Her reason for this is that in her experience, given that our LA is pretty crap and ineffective on practically every count, she is convinced that once a label is attached to her DD, nothing else will become of it - she wont get anything out of them more than the little bit of small group support randomly offered at the moment.

In all fairness, she is probably right. There are definitely statemented kids in her DDs class (and I know some of the ones in my DCs classes quite well). They are openly failed by the system, shouted at in a threatening way by the teachers, ignored by the non-SEN children (unless you count bullying at playtime). They make no progress. It does not help that their parents are often fairly new to this country who would not know where to start in terms of using the system to their advantage. They simply nod and agree with everything the SENCO says to them - that is probably why my neighbour was such a threat to the SENCO as by and large, she can get away with anything.

Btw, this is an outstanding primary - the school into which everyone wants to gain admission.

Meant to add that this is basically the deal she is after:

No more piling on the pressure, overfocussing on her DD when one third of the pupils are SEN and some obviously need a lot more help than they are currently getting;

No more covert threats re 'concerns about welfare', 'if you don't agree we will have it enforced';

She wants to Home-Ed (with or without EP input) BUT will even forgo that goal and stay on at the school if it makes for a quieter life. Their misplaced paranoia re welfare might tip them over the edge if they no longer feel as though they are 'in control' of her DD.

What she does NOT want:
Statutory assessment, a label, involvement of outside agencies re ahem, "welfare" .

Btw, the bullying has been bad and is getting worse as well as physical. In one lesson, a boy in the class told her DD that he was going to shoot at her lazy eye with a toy bow and arrow just like King Harold in the Bayeux Tapestry and the TA was laughing rather than intervening for him to stop, even though the DD had looked towards her in hope of support.

The SENCO openly approaches and discusses DDs issues in front of all the other parents outside the classroom even though she is not comfortable with this. She complained, was told it would not happen again as if that was a satisfactory solution. It immediately added fuel to fire and her DD only recd ONE christmas card this year from a boy with really complex SNs (who is obv marginalised too) even though she recd 20 last year and the children were giving out stacks of cards at a time.

... and your friend wants her child to remain at this school - because there is no ther

Unless she lives on one of the remoter islands of the Outer Hebrides there are other schools to transfer to.

She cannot stop the school referring her daughter for whatever assessments they deem necessary - and if she tries to prevent them doing so she really will be facing welfare investigations.

As for labels - i presume you mean formal diagnosis. That can only be issued by a paediatrician. If school refer her DD to the Community Paediatrician and she attempts to block that referral she'll raise suspicions and doubtless SS will be called in too.

Good luck.

I think the adults actually in this child's life are in danger of forgetting that there is a little girl at the centre of all this.

Unless you have yourself seen this:-
"The SENCO openly approaches and discusses DDs issues in front of all the other parents outside the classroom even though she is not comfortable with this", this is all unsubstantiated heresay.

The more this mum resists the more she is setting herself up precisely for the sort of welfare investigations she purports not to want. Surely this lady wants the best for her DD no matter how difficult getting that may be?.

Unless you have yourself seen this:-
"The SENCO openly approaches and discusses DDs issues in front of all the other parents outside the classroom even though she is not comfortable with this", this is all unsubstantiated heresay.

Actually, I know that others have witnessed this independantly. Still not sure what to suggest re my last post

Who are these other people exactly?. Again unless you have seen it for yourself you cannot take that as gospel truth. Am sure as well the school would paint a very different picture of this child's needs.

I still stand by my concern that the adults involved in this little girl's life are forgetting that there is a child here in the middle of all this.

Other parents with kids in several year groups who heard it on more than one occasion and were overheard by another friend at the christmas coffee morning.

"I still stand by my concern that the adults involved in this little girl's life are forgetting that there is a child here in the middle of all this."
I agree strongly, of course, though we are still not sure how best to proceed. The bullying became much worse after the SENCOs indiscretions - I cannot understand why this was not a disciplinary offence and why she got off so lightly. She wears many hats within the school hierarchy and the headmistress seems v much like her subordinate at crunch time. What would you identify as the main priority - finding another school with a healthier attitude?