Neighbour SA+dilemma - sorry, very long

[figcake]

I have posted elsewhere and condensed so thanks if you replied - just need a SN angle to understand the nature of the beast.
I have a question on behalf of my lovely neighbour who is non-MN. Her DD aged 8 has been bullied at primary school for the last 2 years and it is definitely not getting any better or being addressed by the school. Outside school she is really lovely, friendly, bubbly good com skills - infact, people stop her in the street/supermarket saying how they wished their Dc was "that lovely" "friendly" "chatty"etc.

Because she is increasingly ostracised and bullied at school and neighbour complained on a few specific occasions, they placed her DD on the SEN reg as they insist that she has difficulties socializing and none of their pupils would have said any of the horrible things she quoted as they sound too "grown-up" and effectively accused neighbour of lying even though she is a very honest person.

They have really been pressurizing neighbour into agreeing to external assessments (and made her sign a referral form) even though she was dead set against it as nobody anywhere else thinks there is an issue and is more to do with the school (btw no places in other schools in LA as there is a shortage of places here). They have not relented and have now written to say that they will be looking into other official ways in which to force her to agree to the assessments they require if she does not comply. i.e they WILL take place

She has been talking of home-edding for a while and def feels equipped to do it but she now feels that LA will be 'on her back' even after she deregisters DD and not leave her alone as things are too far gone against her.

My friend came round today in tears saying that this was the most depressing Christmas she has ever had due to the timing of the threatening letter and the fact that there was nobody there for her to contact for discussion until January 6th.

The issues that are weighing heavily on her mind are the following (any MN help would be amazing and hopefully solve her insomnia and stress-related headaches):

Her DD has been put on SA+. Even though she has never been actually assessed by any outside agency, a couple of random 'observations' were carried out last year by EP at school. As soon as friend and school started to disagree on stuff a report was sent from EP dept formalising any contact that they had had with friend and her DD. They also wrote that friend had mentioned that her exDH did not really support some aspects of her parenting style. They have never spoken to him, he did not say that and nor did she. It seems as though they are trying to frame her and typecast her as being a bad parent especially with frequent mentions of how they are really concerned about her DD's WELFARE (word has come up a lot, sometimes out of context from Head Teacher - we are thinking EWO or worse - there were a few threads on MN last night that have really got me thinking).

There is an initiative in place in our Borough which involves providing a seamless service across various specialist areas. When the SENCO put my friend under pressure re EP referral, she presented her with a 'common assessment form'. Friend was led to believe that this would cover EP referral only but we had a look at the form online earlier and it is definitely seems to be about the parent agreeing to the school making the referral and parent not being able to withdraw this permission once granted.

The threatening letter she recd from EP Dept last week does make it sound as though the power can been taken out of her hands. Whilst EPs are over-worked etc. they are absolutely working in sync with the school on this one - it has been pretty ridiculous in that school have called Mum in for a wrist slapping, letter from EP Dept arrives in the post a couple of days later reinforcing the latter.

The SENCO is a bully as I may have mentioned and has used the longevity of her career to wrap the LA round her little finger in some kind of sick power game.

Even if she did de-reg next week, it all seems a bit Hotel California to us and there is the possibility that it would open up a can of worms. They are slowly painting a picture of her as being deluded, confrontational, blinded to her DDs serious needs - there is no independent opinion available within LA that would convince them that they are not infalliable. Despite there being a queue of people eager to access their input, friend is constantly being pushed to the front of a queue that she never wante to join in the first place. Would H-edding remedy the situation or simply up the ante? The DDs grandmother thinks that the only solution is to comply and try and move?

Sorry if I have rambled on without making much sense though we really need for her to get things straight in her head before school opens.

• finding another school with a healthier attitude?

Absolutely.

She's well past the point of no return with this school.

If she is right that her DD has no specific SENs then another school may well support that view and the issue is resolved. However if the new school also identifies a problem then she needs to face the reality that her failure to acknowledge her DDs SENs is the real problem here.

Yes, her mother said as much too - the second school would not be wrong. However, as I mentioned, the SEN support at this school for children with statements is terrible - it is very much about washing their hands of certain children and brushing them out of the stats in order to appear great. SEN or no SEN, their attitude is at least as great a problem. There are examples on MN of children who are happily integrated into mainstream schools and given great support - it would never happen here. The DD is set upon by the usual suspects, she tries to defend herself and retaliate, they talk their way out of it, she is blamed by the teachers, they get away with it and carry on denting her self-esteem. It is a really horrible cycle.

Figcake I don't think anyone is going to 'invent' a special need for this girl. If there are no problems, then an observation will pick that up. A 'bullying' SENCO will not get her a diagnosis if there isn't one to give, iyswim. The mum probably needs to step back and let the school do their thing. At the same time, I, as her mother, would be referring her to a pediatrician off my own back and getting an objective, non-bias and independent assessment of my child by a medical professional. That way, the mother is taking control of the situation, not fighting it and being uncooperative in their eyes. If there is nothing to find, nothing will be found. No parent ever wants to hear that a school suspects their child has a SN and it can be an awful shock if they do, but this mum seriously needs to be in charge of this process and appear supportive of all involved. I wish her well ......

UPDATE

It has been a really tough day. (Bit of background: neighbour sent a boot-licking type letter after Christmas to say that she was willing to have EP involvement after all. Reply invited her DD to begin a series of appointments supposedly starting today. Please bear in mind that she has never actually had an assessment to date).

Neighbour turned up with DD and they were led into a room. EP ignored DD other than saying hello. EP was a cold bitchy type - pretty much immediately and defensively says something along the lines of ' I have looked at DD at school while I was there observing another child. DD has serious difficulties IMO. I am referring to a paed straight away.' My neighbour said she needed time to consider. EP said 'I am doing it regardless - if you don't comply we are also referring straight to the safeguarding officer as you are not allowing us to meet DDs needs so we have serious concerns about her welfare....If you had agreed to do things our way from the start without challenging us it would not have come to this'.

What I need to know is;
Is this acceptable? Neighbour was very strongly led to believe she had attended in order to have an EP prog drawn up. Her letter to them had clearly indicated her willingness. DD was off school for that very reason - yet it was almost as though DD was 'being used' in her being present as evidence of the EP having seen her. If all she wanted to do was to wash her hands of DD then why do it in such a calculating way esp as DDs mum had already held up an olive branch of sorts?

There seems to be some kind of strong punishment element built into this - 'if you had done what we asked we would not have resorted to paed as our first port of call'. For a child who does not have complex SN or SENs what is the logic in going straight to paed without any kind of assessment? (Well, funding was mentioned pretty early on actually).

Neighbour is understandably distraught and we feel that she has been 'stitched up' in a really calculated and unethical way. There are major issues which have been ignored, such as whether it is a case of DDs school being the wrong type of environment for her. Does neighbour have a right to insist upon being offered the usual involvement of EPs, SALT etc. - any right of appeal?

Where is this likely to go next and what are the choices open to neighbour?

OK, don't panic. This is a means to get the independent second opinion that your friend could do with. She clearly doesn't like or trust the school, and so getting her dd seen by someone she does trust is a priority.

If she has concerns about the referral the EP is making, she can bypass them and go via her GP. The usual routes of referral are a CAMHS doctor or a community paediatrician, and both of those can be accessed by school or by GP referral. This would give her a chance to put her views across even before the initial appointment. It would also allow the GP to include any relevant information, eg pregnancy/birth problems, family background, early developmental milestones etc.

Paediatricians really are very, very reluctant to diagnose any child who doesn't have a problem (and often quite reluctant to diagnose even those who clearly do!). If you browse these boards you'll see lots of posts from people with good reason to be convinced that their child has autism/ adhd/ dyspraxia/ whatever and it often takes 2-3 years for the doctor to feel there's enough evidence for a diagnosis.

The other thing health workers feel strongly about is being told their job by other professionals (eg teachers and sencos). This can sometimes mean they ignore sensible advice, but also gives a thick layer of protection to parents who know their child best.

Thanks for your reassurances. Could the Paed referral effectively amount to a statutory assessment actioned by the LA (which is supposedly less likely to be in the child's favour than one requested by the parents? Excuse my lack of knowledge if this is not the case

Just what I forecast when I said
"Your neighbour needs to be careful that the school / LA do not perceive her failure to engage with the process as an issue for which they start to involve EWO or Social Services."

Her failure to cooperate from teh start menas they are now treating her as hostile and leaving her vulnerable to charges of neglect etc.

The EP is corret to refer the child to a Paed if they have medical concerns about the child.

the Paed cannot initiate a statutory assessment. The only people who can do that are school, the LA or the parent. And that's what I suggested she did. Instead she'll probably have one initiated by the LA anyway.

It doesn't matter who initiated the assessment - the outcome should be the same. It just presents the parent in a much better light to acknowledge the child has difficulties so initiate an assessment to determine the extent of thsoe difficulties and what support she'd need in school.

sounds like to me wether we all agree or disagree (and i feel its better to have the assesments ect done IMHO), as if there is nothing this will also show up ,plus she will get her chance to explain herself and her reasons she disagrees, we also know that our DC can be one way at school and another at home, none of us are a fly on the wall, that maybe she needs to get someone nutural to assist talking to the school so as not to agitate the situation further before ( it sounds as if it has already) relations break down completely PP , SNAP someone to mediate basically and someone as they will be able to get information from both sides and advise her?... just a thought

Weaugust - but she made amends, wrote them a lovely letter agreeing to cooperate - instead, this was met with twice as much hostility and suspicion. While your predictions were right, we have moved from friend saying her DD has no SNs to friend now saying 'hang on - they are going to assess us now anyway, so maybe I should quickly apply for SA to prove that I am not neglectful'

It would not be too late to apply now, would it? Main prob is that they are claiming DD has LDs all of a sudden whereas her DD is academically very able. They are also claiming she needs full time i-i even though just one month ago, they said that 10 hrs a week was working just fine out of SA plus budget (Not that they were giving her any time at all in reality). She wants to apply for SA wrt social-educational needs only, so as to change the slant of this; prove that she does think there are issues.

Her DD has never had any medical issues that would warrant paed. Is this merely a pre-assessment formality in your opinion? That is, collating reports from School, EP and paed? Or does it tie in with the ridiculous threats re her DDs welare and referring to the safeguarding nurse if she does not comply?

"prove that she does think there are issues. "

that is to say, even though not the same issues as the school and LA.

I detect a scam, I honestly do -the school is lining their pockets in the name of children identified as easy targets. There a`re children at the school with so called f/t 1 to 1 who are honestly learning nothing - and the f/t 1 to 1 has a very p/t feel to it indeed

BUT friend would play ball if it meant that she could name a nearby 1 form entry school as her preferred school and take whatever 1-1 is being offered

Funds are in such short supply from LAs, I really can't see a statement with funding attached being issued without really serious concerns.

In fact, the opposite tends to happen - ie. school has great concerns, as does EP or S&L, but statement is refused.

You only need to read the number of threads on mumsnet about parents seeking a statement to see what I mean.

When I see statements such as this:

"She wants to apply for SA wrt social-educational needs only, so as to change the slant of this; prove that she does think there are issues."

it proves to me that your neighbour really has not 'got it' yet at all!

She's still trying to call the shots.

She's also incredibly ignorant if not a little naive / arrogant to think she can constrain an assessment to 'social needs'.

She can't.

It is quite common for a child to be academically bright, if not gifted, but still have learning diffiulties.

Same with this statement:

"Her DD has never had any medical issues that would warrant paed."

How does she know that her DD's difficulties are not caused by a medical issue.? Paeds can refer her on to specialists such as those who could assess for ASD.

If what you say is true and they are suggesting 1:1 you neighbour ought to start understanding that her child has very serious difficulties indeed. Many parents on here with seriously disabled children are denied 1:1 and have to fight tooth and nail to get it.

Somehow this whole situation doesn't seems rather extraoridinary to me - with a school who is calling in help yet failing to provide the help (10 hours) she should have been receiving all along.

Which is why I siad she should apply for an SA herself.

There are 2 outcomes

1. no difficulties are identified - she is left in peace

2. difficulties are idnetified and the child gets the support she requires

or possibly a 3rd in your neighbour's eyes - that every memebr f the assessment team conspires to label her totally normal child and insists on providing support she doen't need - a sort of collective Munchausen by Proxy infesting the whole assessment team.

Yes, I have noticed those actually. It is just that if SHE asks for the statement, this proves that she was not opposed to having her DDs needs met (the thorny issue in all of this).

The timeframe for assessment seems quite generous - this could work in her favour too (maybe, seek out other schools if not even move house?).

By contrast, the paed's letter is probably likely to come through a lot sooner (judging by the speed of their communication you would think that her DD is the only child in the borough). And since she would not have the upper hand, she would still encounter the hostility and insinuations that she does not care about her own (much loved and supported) DDs welfare.

Wetaugust - but the main difficulty she has with them is that they wont listen to her, take her opinion on board - they are really bloody awful towards her instead of being sympathetic and supportive. They are painting a picture of her as her DDs worst enemy - can you imagine what that feels like for a parent who is so unbelievably devoted to her DCs?

But Fig, she doesn't see her dd in a school setting. The dd has been seen by the EP. That is an educational psychologist. How she behaves at home is not the issue here.

Many parents on here with seriously disabled children are denied 1:1 and have to fight tooth and nail to get it.

I know that. We see the couple of kids in every class with f/t 1 to 1 and it is usually justified. The fact that she does not need it makes this a lot worse. As I said, it is a pocket-lining exercise for the school - for all we know, they could be doing it to a few kids - infact, I am pretty sure I have overheard stuff at the office a few times (though a different part of the school to her DD). They don't actually employ f/t 1-1s as they should be doing. They split them between several kids and use them as an extra pair of hands. It is all pretty corrupt at the school. Which is why she would not keep her DD there even if she was awarded it.

I still maintain that it is virtually impossible to get a statement without serious amounts of evidence and incredibly convincing reports from a number of external professionals.

Sorry to say it Fig - I think she is her own DD's worst enemy.

She doesn't understand SA or SEN support and thinks she can dictate to them about what she will/will not agree to assess for.

The bottom line is - They will assess whether she like it or not and there is absolutely nothing she can do about it.

If and when a Statutory assessment is undertaken she will be asked to provide what's called 'Parental Advice'. that's her description of what she's sees as her DD's problems and what she would like to se in the way of support for her DD.

That's her opportunity to say 'There is nothing worng with my DD - you are all wasting our time'.

Could you please tell me exactly which Council she lives in as I'm sure all the people on this board who are battling their Councils to receive basic support will move there tomorrow as if they can do all this for a child with no problems whatsoever just think what they could lay on for those that actually do have problems.

Neighbour said that she checked with education department on Friday who confirmed that (in stark contrast to the last time she enquired) there are around 15 schools with vacancies in her DDs year including some well-regarded ones.

If she left her current school, could this change the course of things at all?

You seem to be ignoring the points that WetAugust and I are raising.

I'm sorry, not doing this deliberately - there is so much to consider plus I am texting her back and forth. I will read through it again.

Figcake

I find your posts quite worrying.

You claim your neighbour is cooperating yet she's also exploring ways of attempting to remove her daughter from the process by changing schools or ven moving house.

I find that quite sinister.

You asked for advice - the advise was to comply fully with the process. The penalties for not doing so have been spelt out - as she is already finding.

If she truly believes she is being harrassed by this school she should complain to the Local Authority.

The next thing is that social services will be involved - probbaly sooner rather than later if she attempts to change schools / Council.

I can't see any point in carrying on this converstaion while she seems hell-bent on keeping her head well and truly buried in the sand.

Which makes me think - what exactly is she trying to hide?

Nothing, Wetaugust - she is not hiding anything. She is just afraid. Terrified even? Completely out of her comfort zone. She just wishes that it was not happening. In her own words, 'Nobody is going to be able to wave a magic wand and make any social difficulties disappear. After all, we have already seen just how effective the intended providers of help and therapy actually are'.

I don't think she could hack it as a single parent with little real support - I don't know if her daughter could go through all the probing and come out unscathed either.

And she is complying fully, boot-licking even. It has just not made the blindest bit of difference wrt the suspicion with which she is regarded. If she is complying, why can they not treat her respectfully? Why would an EP call in her Dd under false pretences and stab them in the back by NOT providing this and just saying 'oh, I am referring you on' - when there was ample opportunity to do this without the stealth?

having to deal with shitty supercilious professionals is something that everyone on this board will have had experience of. She's not unique - that's what it's like.

We've all been terrified / out of our comfort zones / wishing it wasn't happening - but she has to face facts: her child has given several people who are closely involved with her in a school setting, cause for concern. She has to accept that fact. We all want perfect children but when we don't have them the next most important thing is getting them help - early and sufficiently.

Rather than dwelling on the why are they acting like this towards me - why doesn't she take the time to educate herself on SENs? She could start by reading a copy of the SEN COP - the schools and LA bible on the subject so she understands what is ahppening, when it will be happening and what her and her child's rights actually are.

Then she could have an infomred discussion with these professionals and agencies instead of having the primeveal gut reaction she has at present.

Just advice