Neighbour SA+dilemma - sorry, very long

[figcake]

I have posted elsewhere and condensed so thanks if you replied - just need a SN angle to understand the nature of the beast.
I have a question on behalf of my lovely neighbour who is non-MN. Her DD aged 8 has been bullied at primary school for the last 2 years and it is definitely not getting any better or being addressed by the school. Outside school she is really lovely, friendly, bubbly good com skills - infact, people stop her in the street/supermarket saying how they wished their Dc was "that lovely" "friendly" "chatty"etc.

Because she is increasingly ostracised and bullied at school and neighbour complained on a few specific occasions, they placed her DD on the SEN reg as they insist that she has difficulties socializing and none of their pupils would have said any of the horrible things she quoted as they sound too "grown-up" and effectively accused neighbour of lying even though she is a very honest person.

They have really been pressurizing neighbour into agreeing to external assessments (and made her sign a referral form) even though she was dead set against it as nobody anywhere else thinks there is an issue and is more to do with the school (btw no places in other schools in LA as there is a shortage of places here). They have not relented and have now written to say that they will be looking into other official ways in which to force her to agree to the assessments they require if she does not comply. i.e they WILL take place

She has been talking of home-edding for a while and def feels equipped to do it but she now feels that LA will be 'on her back' even after she deregisters DD and not leave her alone as things are too far gone against her.

My friend came round today in tears saying that this was the most depressing Christmas she has ever had due to the timing of the threatening letter and the fact that there was nobody there for her to contact for discussion until January 6th.

The issues that are weighing heavily on her mind are the following (any MN help would be amazing and hopefully solve her insomnia and stress-related headaches):

Her DD has been put on SA+. Even though she has never been actually assessed by any outside agency, a couple of random 'observations' were carried out last year by EP at school. As soon as friend and school started to disagree on stuff a report was sent from EP dept formalising any contact that they had had with friend and her DD. They also wrote that friend had mentioned that her exDH did not really support some aspects of her parenting style. They have never spoken to him, he did not say that and nor did she. It seems as though they are trying to frame her and typecast her as being a bad parent especially with frequent mentions of how they are really concerned about her DD's WELFARE (word has come up a lot, sometimes out of context from Head Teacher - we are thinking EWO or worse - there were a few threads on MN last night that have really got me thinking).

There is an initiative in place in our Borough which involves providing a seamless service across various specialist areas. When the SENCO put my friend under pressure re EP referral, she presented her with a 'common assessment form'. Friend was led to believe that this would cover EP referral only but we had a look at the form online earlier and it is definitely seems to be about the parent agreeing to the school making the referral and parent not being able to withdraw this permission once granted.

The threatening letter she recd from EP Dept last week does make it sound as though the power can been taken out of her hands. Whilst EPs are over-worked etc. they are absolutely working in sync with the school on this one - it has been pretty ridiculous in that school have called Mum in for a wrist slapping, letter from EP Dept arrives in the post a couple of days later reinforcing the latter.

The SENCO is a bully as I may have mentioned and has used the longevity of her career to wrap the LA round her little finger in some kind of sick power game.

Even if she did de-reg next week, it all seems a bit Hotel California to us and there is the possibility that it would open up a can of worms. They are slowly painting a picture of her as being deluded, confrontational, blinded to her DDs serious needs - there is no independent opinion available within LA that would convince them that they are not infalliable. Despite there being a queue of people eager to access their input, friend is constantly being pushed to the front of a queue that she never wante to join in the first place. Would H-edding remedy the situation or simply up the ante? The DDs grandmother thinks that the only solution is to comply and try and move?

Sorry if I have rambled on without making much sense though we really need for her to get things straight in her head before school opens.

fig, where you actually in the meeting with her and the ep? You seem to have very strong feelings on what was said but I guess you've only heard it from your friend?
You say she is complying but then you're talking about can she move schools etc?
You say the ep stabbed them in the back- I really don't get what you mean. Was the ep not just wanting to meet mum to explain she needing refering?

To be honest I can only agree with what others have already said and tbh from what you're saying maybe ss being involved is not such a bad idea as they could maybe help mum (she certainly sounds like she is in denial).

Schools do not and will not ask for statments for pupils they don't think need one. They very very commonly don't ask for pupils that they do think need one, as they are often turned down from lea's unless the parents are also chasing them.

There is no conspiracy here. Your friend needs help as does her daughter by the sound of it. If she already has 10 per week 1: 1 and school are saying she needs more than your friend must be aware there are difficulties.

Can mum get online on here or other sites at all? I really think she needs help, she sounds both in denial and frightened, which must be a difficult poistion to be in.

If I was your neigbour I would make an appointment with my GP to speak about the DD's referal. Asking the GP if they were in anyway worried about the DD, and asking if thre GP could make a referal.

This appointment plus the referal would either show to me that there was an issue which I would then work with the school or prove that there wasn't and would ask that the specialist/gp wrote to the LEA/SENCO and explained the outcomes.

I would also look at moving the DD not because of all the issues regarding statementing - but because of the bullying - then when approaching the other schools mention that the DD had been assessed as a possibility of having a SEN and ask that they get their SENCO to speak to me and also assess the DD in her first couple of weeks.

TBH if she does anything else then she is setting herself up with some major problems.

I know that I am getting too close to all of this atm - I am really her only source of support; she does not know much about computers so she could not come on herself though I do seem to chat to her about it all day

I think we have agreed on 2 thongs
Need to get GP on her side. GP does not really know her DD but can probably give it a go.
Need to put in a request for a statement
Need to agree on everything and make them believe she is buying into their exaggerated sense of self-importance, ask them for tips, agree with everything within reason

A bit sad about the statement bit but best to have the upper hand and get in there first if it is the way things will go anyway

One question- could they get full time funding without applying for a statement based on paed assessment alone or does the fact that they are going for a funding increase denote that they will be drafting a statement? they definitely seem to be getting all the usual suspects in place.

I reckon her applying for a SA will piss them off a little bit as it will prove that she does want her DDs needs investigated and that she is NOT in denial

could they get full time funding without applying for a statement based on paed assessment alone

• NO

Thanks - I am sorry, I just don't manage to thank you as much as I should be doing and I feel terribly rude on account of it - do you think this is the correct strategy?

Fig

Hi. I work in SEN. No school will go as far as this without them having serious concerns. The paperwork, the hassle the everything is seriously off putting. This girl must have some major problems within the school setting. I have a son with a statement as long as your arm. He has 5 (yes FIVE) main conditions - quite a few impacting on social interraction. Most people that meet him don't know there is anything wrong with him and all are very surprised when I say he is at a special school. Speaking as a Speech and language bod (not a SALT but I know a bit more about it than the average teacher) the conditions can be hidden. I've one chap I teach who has the comprehension age of a 6 year old. If you met him he would be the nicest politest person ever. We have another who on a one to one is lovely but in a social situations is an absoulte devil and clearly has deep deep pschological problems that are beyond our reach yet if you met him and his mum you'd think they were lovely and wouldn't believe our side of the story at all.
All I am saying is that there are two sides. You are being fed one side. I do think it very worrying and would also be contacting the EWO and everyone else if I had a parent that was in such deliberate denial when her daughter clearly needs help. The school doesn't sound wonderful and the level of bullying that is clearly tolerated is not good BUT do not underestimate the mad parent. We had one mother who walked in with her son into the library at break time - she crept in. She argued when she was escorted out. How bonkers is that yet it was our fault that her son wasn't settling despite being given hours and hours of support and help.
Just be aware no school is going to go down this route unless there are serious concerns and I know she is your friend but there might be loads of stuff you don't know of. You also don't know what this girl is doing at school - they might have told your friend but she has decided not to tell you or didn't hear. I think it might be better for your friend to take an advocate - it could be you or if you think that pulls you in too much perhaps she could contact Partnershi with Parents who could provide support.

What does the child's father think? How much contact does she have with him. Are there deeper issues here, ie, this girl might be exhibiting some behaviours which might be linked to something that isn't a born with SEN but an acquired additional need. I'm not saying that this is the case but one thing I have learnt professionally is that you just don't know what has gone on in a child's life before - only what a parent decides they will tell you or what has been reported on.

You are being a very good friend and obviously a rock. No one wants their child to have SEN and I fought like a wild animal and had depression when my son was diagnosed but as Attila says there is a little girl here and she is the primary need. Your friend needs to focus on that and put all her issues with the school on one side apaprt from obvious substantiated bullying of her daughter by her peers.

Good luck

"I think we have agreed on 2 thongs"

Sorry, I meant THINGS

thanks flyingmum - very curious about the "acquired additional needs" - I wonder how could such a thing be tested for with enough reliability to pin a label on a child who is still developing?

Mum is def not a "mad mum" and has never done the kinds of things you describe.

What happens at a paed appointment for such a child? I am thinking of going along but I am wary of outing myself as a supporter esp as my much younger DS is nerdy and potentially a target in the future.

Child's father is moving to Spain with new partner - not really involved but occasionally opinionated .

Could I also clarify - does statement usually = diagnosis or is there leeway to negotiate that child should not be tested for everything under the sun and have a more general diagnosis based on difficulties rather than alphabet combos?

Figcake
the SEN COP explains all - but I'll give you the potted version.

Following receipt of a request from a school or a prent for an assessment that may lead to a Statement the LA will contact the school to ask for more information about the child's difficulties. Sometimes parents will enclose letters with the request from professionals who are involved with their child to prove to the LA that the child does have a problem that warrants investigation.

The LA then decide whether to conduct a full-blown statutory assessment that may lead to a Statement. (So you can see the process is actually 2 assessments, the prlimminary and the full). Or the LA may decide there is insufficient evidence that the child has difficulties and will refuse the statutory assessment.

the full statutory assessment involves the LA seeking advice from everyone who is 'involved' with the child. Those people that the LA must seek advice from list are the Parent, Educational Pyschologist, Community Paediatrican. The LA will also ask Social Services if they are involved with the child. The LA will ask the parent if there's anyone else that the LA should seek advice from such as an SALT, CAMHS, OT etc. If the parent names any of these the LA will ask for a report from them.

Once all those reports have been obtained the LA will decide whether there is sufficient evidence that a Statement needs to be issued. If there is then the LA will decide what leval of support is required to support the difficulties that have been described in all those reports. The Statement will then be issued. However the LA may decide that a Statement isn't needed and will issue a Note In Lieu (i.e. a meaningless piece of paper that is not legally enforceable).

Your neighbour's child has seen an Ed Pysch and is being referred to a Paed however this is nothing to do with Statements or statutory assessments. The ed Pysch and Paed are just being asked to examine / assess the child. t

At some stage in the future the school may initiate a request for a Statement (or your neighbour can). The process I described for statutory assessment will then start which means the Ed Pysch and Paed will be 2 of those who are asked to make formal reports that will help the LA to decide whether a Statement is to be issued.

A Community Paed examintaion is very basic indeed. Developmental history, weight, height, hearing test etc. If the Communiaty Paed ahs concerns then they may refer the child to specialists such as Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS) who will carry out more specific tests.

As the school already have concerns and she's been seen by Ed Pysch and will be seen by a Paed your neighbour may as well make a request for assessment for a Statement and get the whole thing done formally and comprehensively.

She cannot constrain the assessment to areas she likes / dislikes. they write their reports and she can disagree with the reports. She is one of those consulted in the statutory assessment and would be asked to write her own report. In her report she can tell the LA that she thinks they are wasting her time and that there's nothing wrong with DD - if that's what she honestly believes. She can take the opportunity in her report to slag off her current school and make her accusations that they have singled her daughter out to increase their staff numbers using funding that will come from a Statement. She can write anything she likes. I did - all 34 pages blasting the incompetence of school.

So that's how it works.

the ed Pysch and Comm Paed cannot say that school should provide anything at all that is legally bidning on school to provide. Only a Statement can do that and the people who write Statements are the LA - not Paeds or ed Pysch - they just write their reports and make recommendations.

Thankyou, wet - I was actually working through SEN cOP this evening and it has given me a stiff neck!

One final question - do aseessments always lead to diagnosis or does that come after a length of time, if at all

Wet August - last question of the evening:

ED Psych mentioned that even if DD left the school, she would still be under paed and need to be seen periodically. Is this purely because paed comes under a medical service or is she insinuating something else?

One final question - do aseessments always lead to diagnosis or does that come after a length of time, if at all

EITHER - it's only the medics who can dx (not the Ed Pysch). So teh reports for an SA written by the medics may be the first written dx. Or they may just state behaviour / presentation without a dx. The Dx is unimportant as Statements are issued to support the individual child's learning difficulties - i.e. not in response to the stereotypical support that may be required for a particular dx. Some children neither receive a firm dx of anything - but still have Statements.

If she's been referred to a Paed then she is technically under the care of that paed until she is discharged. So if the Paed wants to keep seeing her further appointments will be made regardless of what school she attends. Community Paeds only tend to see the child once during the statutory assessment process and having submitted their report that's their involvement finished - unless the Comm Paed has concerns and refers the child on to more specilaised services such as CAMHS etc.

If the Paed has concerns about welfare of teh child she will contact SS or EWO or Safe-Guarding Children Team.

My sons paed report, says he MAY have overlapping conditions of x y and z, but she would not state for definite after only seeing him once. I suspect this to be the case for most people, therefore a referal to a paed for the purposes of a statement is unlikely to result in a diagnosis in itself unless there are follow up appointments.

What is it about the statementing process that she's so worried about? Is she thinking that there is nothing wrong and is worried that school are saying there is in order to get more money (via a statement) and therefore her child will end up 'labelled' when there's nothing wrong.

If so, there is catagorically no way this could happen. There is no way a paed and ed pysc will 'find' problems that are not there. She must remember that the lea will activly seek ways to avoid having to statement, as it costs them money. The ed psycs are employed by the lea NOT by the school and are instructed against encouraging people to apply for statements.

There really is no way an ed psyc employed by the lea will 'make up' problems. Think about it! Therefore, school have nothing to gain by 'making up' problems as unless a statement is recieved they get NO more money from the lea.

I'm sure this has probably been stated more clearly already but your posts really sound as though either you or her think there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Really the school is not gaining anything here unless a statement is issued. This absolutly will not be done unless the ed psyc report is very convincing .which it won't be unless there are very real and significant problems.

Well, a statement would def be issued as they have made quite clear that they want more money. If they secured this and spent it on the DD that would not be a problem.

However, there are many children at the school with full funding who are being let down and not really supported as they should be. The school is very "closed doors", many parents don't speak the language and/or understand the procedures so they would challenge what goes on. I have volunteered there on several occasions so I do know about it.

I do imagine that some people on MN live in conditions a lot closer to the ideal than our corrupt, officially failing London borough

The school doesn't issue a statement - the LEA does. The school can't make the LEA issue a statement.

No one on this board would ever dispute that children with SN get let down, and that statements frequently don't work, and that resources meant for SN kids frequently don't go there.

None of that is relevant to your friend's current situation.

"Well, a statement would def be issued as they have made quite clear that they want more money. If they secured this and spent it on the DD that would not be a problem."

You seem to be completely misunderstanding this fig. There is absolutely nothing certain about being awarded a statement.

The school may or may not have made it clear that they want more money. They are currently putting in 10 hours per week 1 to 1 out of the school budget but feel that it is not enough to support your friend's dd. On this basis, they have to apply for a statement if they want the funds to pay for further support. They simply won't be able to afford to pay for one to one support long term out of main school budgets.

However, it is not the school who decides whether a statement is issued. That is down to the LA, after consideration of reports from the school and other professionals.

Whatever you think you do or don't know about the runnings of the school, I can assure you that the is much you don't know about, in terms of timetabling of TAs, support available, budgets etc. etc. You are simply speculating.

I really think you are getting too close to this. Your desire to help your friend is laudable, but simply accepting she says to you at face value is not helpful. I would strongly suggest that she contacts Parent Partnership who will be able to offer her informed and impartial support.

simply accepting what she says to you

I echo ,Littlefish and a lot of the other posters

You sound as though you are getting too close in the sense that there are TWO sides to this-

A school will not go to all the trouble they have unless they think there is something WRONG-

but they cannot diagnose or statement,so the child is being referred to professionals who can

WHY is your friend in such denial...if there is nothing wrong then the professionals will find there is nothing wrong- If there is,then she may be given some useful help

Look again at all the posters who are STILL trying to get a diagosis..and failing..it's not easy and it's not automatic

and finally- you say your friend can't use computers-maybe you could help- perhaps she could use yours - it would open a way of getting extra information which she sounds as though she may need in the future

you are being a good friend,but I think you need to accept the possibility that there is more going on here than is at first apparent

Right, spoken for ages to (the number 1 ) sen lawyers who gave me a few useful tips such as to call LA to see if a statement request had been put in already (it hadn't). She said that the relationship breakdown between DD/Mum and school is the core of the problem and to seek clarification from school as to what their position is as much of what they said a month ago re DD is at odds with what EP said last week. I have become too close, but I weant to see itr through to the end now. I feel really disillusioned about the school wrt my DCs too.

Lawyer said that st them having time, they would perhaps take on the case at the stage of statement-drafting/sendist appeal, though as I knew already, it is at odds with the usual requests for more help rather than less.

She said that I would have to speak to a child protection solicitor for reassurances re the welfare angle as technically, she does not have to keep the paed appointment under these conditions, though obviously, it is best to go along to show willingness to cooperate

I don't see the harm in being assessed?

Assessments for anything, no matter what conditions they're looking for consist of a few forms, chatting to the child and parent and getting them to do a few activities - some we've had for Asperger's are things like putting some pictures in the order the child thinks they should go, playing with some toys - that sort of thing

they're not going to distress the child

There's little to no chance of getting a diagnosis without there being a basis for it - it's hard enough to get one when absolutely everyone agrees that there is an issue with the child...

As a matter of curiousity Figcake. Is your friend a native English speaker?

Are there possibly some cultural differences here at play?

Well, she is Irish so I don't know really