What could it be if DD1 is showing some symptoms of Dyspraxia but not the physical symptoms IYSWIM

[DevilwearsPrada]

Not sure if this is in the right place. As the title says, dd1(5) has been referred by school to an educational psychologist and a paeditrician and a speech expert. So is slow to pick up reading, writing etc. She's coming to the end of reception now. She's always reached her milestones behind what other children do. Her speech is not really up to what a 5 year olds should be (IMO) she can't draw anything apart from squiggles not even stick people.

She's a happy child most of the time and has settled into school well. She tends to stick with the boys rather than play with the girls and has one best (boy) friend. But she doesn't necissarily (sp)understand things which she probably should at her age. She is showing some of the symptoms of dyspraxia -

May be easily distressed and prone to temper tantrums

Persistent language difficulties

Sensitive to sensory stimulation, including high levels of noise, tactile defensiveness, wearing new clothes

Limited response to verbal instruction. May be slow to respond and have problems with comprehension

(Have copied and pasted from dyspraxia website), these are the main symptoms she's showing, also obsessive over certain things done in order, hates routine being broken, constant broken sleep, etc. But she's showing no signs of the physical symptoms (thank god) so I'm confused. She's a very athletic, sports orientated girl, loves anything outdoorsy is excellent with a football. (Proud). On the other hand she can be so sensitive and gets really emotional over random things, she'll have days were she is totally not in the mood for certain people, (i.e me , her nan, her sisters, people in school) never her dad though she adores her dad.

I'm at a bit of a loss TBH, I don't want there to be anything "wrong" with her but I know something isn't quite "right" IYSWIM? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Also meant to add she has excellent concentration and when engrossed in something, (TV, a game or toy) it can be hard to distract her.

watching and bumping (back tomorrow i think...)
DS1 is showing heaps of the same signs as your dd, but his verbal language is fantastic. He is at the end of yr2 and has only just made it off reception level reading books. He has done the dyslexia tests - and whilst they still suspect that he's dyslexic we also think it is "something else" as he's had a dairy intolerance all his life which he isn't showing any sign of growing out of, and all the stuff you describe about frustration temper tantrums, over-sensitivity to lights and noise, and utterly inconsistent progress/ learning pattern.
As i'm a teacher with ASD students I've always seen that he is somewhat like them - but can't be on the autistic spectrum as he can visualise and describe abstract situations and is very creative and a good problem solver. Children with ASD have none of these skills, and I know i "know too much" as it were.
Sorry for huge ramble - gist is you're not alone.
off to bed [at blardy last] will pop in tomorrow

Thanks for the reply giggle, yes like your ds she can't be autistic as she's quite affectionate and expresses herself quite clearly when in a good mood.

My dd sounds similar to yours, she is dyspraxic but also has Aspergers. She is affectionate and articulate and for that reason I thought she couldn't possibly be autistic! I am absolutely not suggesting your dd has autism but Aspergers and dyspraxia are very similar!

I thought that AS chn were more able to use their imagination than ASD chn - is that right or not?

Well, my daughter is dyspraxic and she isn't prone to tantrums anymore than an NT child her age.

'But she's showing no signs of the physical symptoms (thank god) so I'm confused. ' Don't know what to make of that statement, because my daughter has many of the physical symptoms, but it's hardly the end of the world that something is 'wrong' with her.

My daughter doesn't exhibit any sensory sensitivity, tactile defensiveness or social issues, that along with your child's concerns about routine, and obsessiveness with order might be more suggestive of a child who may be on the autistic spectrum rather than dyspraxic - many dyspraxic people have problems with sequencing and so actually struggle with doing tasks in order.

I worked with two university students with Asperger's who were well able to 'visualise and describe abstract situations and is very creative and a good problem solver. Children with ASD have none of these skills, and I know i "know too much" as it were.' But they definitely had Aspergers.

I think it's best to go with teh referrals and see what the ed psych's and paed's assessments say rather than rely on websites or anyone's personal experiences to make a diagnosis, if there is one at all to be found - sometimes there is not and the child is described as having 'developmental coordination disorder' or the like.

My DS1 sounds a lot like this and he has mild Aspergers and dyspraxia.

He doesn't fall over all the time and his main areas of difficulty are fine motor skills and upper body strength and what they call bi-lateral integration - coordinately what the two sides of his body can do. For example he has huge difficulty riding a bike.

I have to say he is very affectionate, has great vocab and verbal abilities although his speech is not clear as he has a touch of verbal dyspraxia.

DWP - your daughter could have both too(sorry if that sounds horrible - it wasn't meant too) or she may not.

There is a huge overlap in symptoms between these conditions and also ADHD. The things you pick out look more like pointers to AS to me although I know that they are part of dyspraxia too but the main symtoms of that are the problems with the motor skills.

For what it is worth I look at the Aspergers website and I don't really recognise my son as somebody who has AS but on the other hand I don't feel 100% confident that everything that is 'wrong' with him is dyspraxia. Tis crap really but at least having a DX, the school takes me seriously and we are getting help with specific problems.

We got a dx via a GP referral to a paed who referred DS on to a clinical psych, OT and SALT. In our area it is very much a team effort and realistically you need input from them all.

We have never seen an ed psych because they aren't actually able to DX AS or dyspraxia.

Get her to see the paed if you can.

Sorry so much I could say to you but I am no expert so I don't want to bombard you with info that isn't relevant or worse still, wrong.

I hope some of it helps.

Well, dyspraxia is primarily a physical disorder, with sometimes emotional co-morbidities, so if your child is well coordinated, athletic etc then no, she simply cannot be dyspraxic. No more than a child who is advanced in reading and has perfect spelling can be dyslexic.
And it is plain and simple nonsense to say that child on the autistic spectrum cannot be affectionate or imaginative or able to visualise abstract situations. the problem is of social imagination, that is, putting yourself in someone else's shoes, so a child with Aspergers may struggle to join in someone else's game or have a meaningful conversation about someone else's favourite subjects(they'd usually much rather talk about their own passions)and they tend not to notice social cues (such as when other people are bored by their conversation or find their behaviour dull or inappropriate). That doesn't mean they cannot imagine their own stories and words with wonderful detail.
I would ask for a referral and get a proper diagnosis (if your daughter has a disorder of some kind) rather than driving yourself mad with websites! By the way, I tend to believe that if you as the parent think something is not quite right, then you are probably correct.

"As i'm a teacher with ASD students I've always seen that he is somewhat like them - but can't be on the autistic spectrum as he can visualise and describe abstract situations and is very creative and a good problem solver. Children with ASD have none of these skills"

Sorry this just isn't true.

My very severely autistic son is the most affectionate of the 3 boys. He's also pretty good at mind reading at basic levels - although he finds it hard to know when he's gone too far. Many of the children with HFA I know have what I would call over-active imaginations - finding it hard to draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Agree with MsD. A proper referral.

There are overlaps in symptoms and issues between various conditions, there is no one size fits all ready diagnosis unfortunately. What applies to your child may not apply to another.

ds hit his physical milestones until about 18 months but is probably dyspraxic and possibly a processing disorder too, apparently that is common too. He isn't prone to tantrums whereas his NT sister is !

Noone wants their child to be different but in the end they are still the same child you know and love. You may not be ready to here what the EP etc have to say and may go through a period of denial (you look for things that don't "fit") and also face that from family , which is hard. Frustratingly it may be too early to diagnose fully the likes of dyslexia so be prepared for it to be a long process to gain a full picture. (4 years and counting here ) hth

My dyspraxic child is six, has totally illegible handwriting, cannot draw, cannot pedal a bike, cannot use a scooter, cannot work out how to do a physical task, has huge problems getting dressed, cannot sequence a task, is a madly messy eater, cannot kick a ball or catch a ball (unless it is made incredibly easy), bumps into things, can knock over a glass from 100 yards etc etc

Dyspraxia is dxed slightly differently in the States. So you can have a big problem with motor planning although be able to do things like pedalling, walking up and down stairs etc.

DS1 has severe motor planning difficulties. So he can't carry out sequences of movements (for example he used to be unable to lie down on his back from standing, or if he tried to sit on the toilet he'd been the wrong way round), nor can he speak (because he can only produce vowel sounds). Some people working from the States dxed him as dyspraxic and severely apraxic immediately but here he doesn't fit the criteria for developmental dyspraxia.

Goodness Ms Demeanor - I think we have the same son!

DWP your daughter obviously has some physical symptoms as she has poor fine motor skills but that is not enough for a DX of dyspraxia. This sort of thing is very common in AS children.

See a paed if you can. Forget the ed psych. They are useful for afterwards, maybe, when you need a programme of therapy for school, not for the DX

Yes, AS kids are notoriously uncoordinated. it's all part of the geek look
I love geekiness though.

Your son and my daughter ought to meet up, MsD .

Make sure you hide all the breakables and remove all obstacles, however!

My daughter will be 5 on 19 June, Prada, and she cannot pedal a bike, go up or down stairs whilst alternating feet, use a scooter, dress or undress herself, walk very long distances (she tires quite easily) or draw, among other things.

She has no handedness at all and swaps her pencil in the middle of any task, seemingly at random.

She also handflaps for Scotland, moves her tongue about whilst trying to do physical tasks, and if she is sitting wehn she's excited or stimulated, her legs and feet spasm.

As stated before, she has no concerns about hte order things are done in because she has major problems with sequencing anything.

Or routine because again, sequencing is something that largely escapes her.

She has to wear shoes even in the house because she's constantly banging her toes into everything or tripping over things, including her own feet.

In addition she has speech delays and other developmental delays related to her learning, so I'm sure there'll be further dx's.

But socially, she's a star! Quite popular and well-liked.

Expat - Interesting you mention handflapping because my DS is a star hand flapper (with a fair bit of pacing thrown in) and I have found very few references to it in relation to dyspraxia. Google it and you get a zillion references to AS but very few linking it to dyspraxia. He cannot be still either and does tend to twitch if he feels too confined. He is nearly 8 and if it is any consolation his hand flapping has decreased a little with age. He was awful at 5!

It interests me because I am not convinced that my DS has AS. The consultant clinical psych he saw said he had some social communication difficulties but she wouldn't DX AS. However the team review where she and the OT weren't present (2 clinical psych colleagues instead) labelled him with AS. This was based, it seemed to me, solely on the hand flapping and a small degree of echolalia. Even this is not typical echolalia as he repeats what he says not what other people say and he understand it.

I would like to argue the point again but don't know who to argue it with! The worst thing is that I don't feel comfortable telling DS about the AS when I don't think it really describes what he is like.

Why don't you think it is accurate Niecie? Handflapping is absolutely classic with ASDs, and so is 'perseverance' - ie repeating yourself. My ds (who also has Aspergers) does it and it drives me bonkers!
I'd say the perseverance, social difficulties and handflapping is pretty indicative. To be honest, he sounds incredibly similar to my ds. I think Aspergers is a pretty broad church. My ds has never lined anything up, has no routines, doesn't mind change and is very cuddly, but he is socially pretty odd and other kids notice (though he is pretty well liked in his class and has a best friend).

she flaps, but has NO evidence of any austic traits.

plenty of handflapping dyspraxics on here, though.

Ah yes, expat, but your dd has no difficulties with social interaction outside her delays, does she? That's a huge difference. Agree handflapping can be dyspraxic, but put together with other things (perseverance, social communication problems), it just struck me that it sounded a very spectrummy package, that's all.

does your child have a dx at all then, Niecie?

don't know what else is in store, but DD1's problems are so far all with her motor skills - it's like the right loops just aren't working.

Well, yes I thought hand flapping was classic AS which is why I mentioned it to Expat whose daughter hasn't got AS.

I think my problem is largely because the clinical psych who met him said he didn't have AS.

I fully accept he is not normal, that he has some of the attributes but I don't recognise him in any of the AS literature and in looking for books on AS to explain it to him, none of them seem to fit. I feel as if he falls between syndromes really.

Having said that (sorry, making this up as I go along - very muddled thinking on this tbh) almost all of the social communication stuff that is wrong is also listed on the Dyspraxia Foundation website as a symptom of dyspraxia. I am just not convinced that the emphasis of his DX is in the right place iyswim.

And then part of me says he is who he is and he is lovely (if massively irritating as you say - sounds like our two definitely cut from the same cloth) and what do labels matter? And then I think that they are a very useful short hand and if I say to somebody he has social communication and coordination problems I sound like I am making excuses for him but if I say he has AS and dyspraxia it sounds a lot more convincing. And then I find I have driven myself slightly mad!

(Sorry DWP I've sort of hijacked your thread - although it does show that DXs aren't easy things to make for these children!)

yes, it struck me as spectrummy, too, MsD.

no, DD1 has no social interactions problems or concentration or attention problems.

she just doesn't 'get' a lot of stuff.

Sorry slightly x-posted with you both.

Computer playing up - I have to post everything twice before it appears. Weird.

Hmm, just having a think here, Niecie.

The other catchall mentioned on DD1's ed psych report was 'developmental coordination disorder'.

I don't know if this would cover the social or sensory difficulties, though. My child doesn't exhibit any such traits.

But again this just shows how tricky it can be to get a DX.

I do know what you mean Niecie, and I think part of the problem is that the stereotyped idea of a person with Aspergers is of a cold-eyed robot lining things up with no kindness, generosity, imagination or humour, and we know that's not our children. And because people think they know all about Aspergers (as seen on this thread) we constantly have to explain our kids are't like that and it sounds defensive. I keep being told that ds doesn't understand word play etc and he absolutely LOVES it. He's also completely brilliant at reading facial expressions - ie can instantly say, 'that's a cross face' 'that's a confused expression' etc etc BUT what says Aspergers to me is that he could say 'that's a bored expression' in the abstract, but would never look at your bored expression while he is talking about something he's obsessed with, realise (or care!) you are bored witness and so will carry on until you think you are going to explode with boredom and frustration! (though he can also be a fascinating person to have conversations with - but the conversations are much stiffer and less fluid than with other kids, even less intelligent ones) It's hard to explain!