EHCP support thread no. 5

[Needlenardlenoo]

Another thread is nearly filled so here is a new one for when we need it. I am the original OP but have name-changed due to admin (let's call it spring cleaning). We got our EHCP finally in June last year and are in a state of cautious optimism two terms into the year 7 transition. There has been no contact from the LA at all to us, but perhaps no news is good news, sometimes. The next challenge is going to be the annual review. I am feeling a bit paranoid the LA might try a cease to maintain. Anyway, onwards and upwards and best wishes to all!

Here are links to previous threads:
EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

That is poor. To give you some examples:
‘Key adults’ needs amending. ‘e.g.’ needs removing. The e.g. means it might not be the teacher, LSA or SENCO. And there is a big difference between teacher, LSA (what training, qualifications, experience will they have?) and SENCO. It needs to be clearer who will be delivering the intervention.
What ‘knowledge and experience’ - once 10 years ago? There is no provision for any training of staff.
‘Support’ is woolly - e.g. what will they be doing, where will they be doing it (outside of the classroom or sat at DC’s table during part of their literacy lesson once a week)?
‘Will be helpful’ needs amending. It is not saying these should be used. One million pound would be helpful. It doesn’t mean I am going to receive it.
‘Up to’ needs removing. As Namechange said, it could be 5 mins.
‘Opportunities to’ needs removing/that sentence needs amending - half-termly reviews can be part of the EHCP, but it shouldn’t be that the provision is then stopped.
E is not a target; it is an outcome. I am not keen on that outcome either, but the bigger issue is F.
Based on that wording, DC may not get the provision you think they will. The wording is not detailed, specified and quantified. Only provision that is detailed, specified and quantified must be provided.

Gosh, now the poster will spend the rest of the day worrying about what to do next about what she thought was a pretty good EHCP.

@Thegladstonebag I have already given @Ehcphelpbeep advice on how to go through the draft and what to do when they come across woolly and vague wording in one of my pp.

It isn’t about worrying anyone. It is about providing information. Knowledge is power. There is no point in saying all is well and the EHCP is good. It is far better Ehcphelpbeep knows that it needs to be detailed, specified and quantified now and can respond to the draft rather than finding out it is inadequate at a later date. Unfortunately, many parents only realise their DC’s EHCP is poor when their DC doesn’t receive the provision they require and they try to enforce the EHCP and find out they can’t because the wording is poor.

@Ehcphelpbeep The SENCO could have all the best intentions, but, for example, the school then decide that the person best suited to run the group needs to do something else, but oh it's okay, XX, although they're inexperienced, can do it - it doesn't state it needs to be that particular person. Or, that person has lots to do today, we can only fit 10 minutes of the group in, but it's okay, the intervention only needs to be up to 30 minutes...

It just gives the school a lot more leeway with how they implement the EHCP, which could be to the detriment of the child.

Another personal example - although not as part of an EHCP so not much I can do about it (but I think an undefined one probably has the same legal basis) - due to EBSA and maths anxiety, my DD missed a lot of maths last year and was meant to have a daily afternoon small-group 'pre-teach' session led by a TA.

Some days it went ahead as planned, but my DD repeatedly reported she hadn't had it. I was completely gaslit by the SENCO, who told me that some days it was just given by the teacher as part of normal teaching(!) so my DD "hadn't realised she had had it" 🤨

It's still in her plan to have this year, but apparently it's now given first thing in the morning by the teacher so not accessible to my DD (the earliest we can get her in is usually 9.30-10). I've been told that she could maybe have it in the afternoon when their year group TA (who they only have for an hour or two a day if that) comes back from sick leave.

Obviously if such provision was specified and quantified in an EHCP, it would be legally enforceable.

https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/chris-coghlan-mp-lawbreaking-gaslighting-lying-wrecking-thousands-childrens-lives/

Won't come as a surprise to many on here...

Can I ask what people's views are on schools relying on other children to offer peer support?

My DD can be outwardly very 'sociable' and chatty, but struggles with nuances, and maintaining friendships. She is friendly with other children, but has had one 'best friend' since reception (now year 5) and has not deviated from this. She is also very reliant on her. DD will often say something to her friend that she hopes her friend will say to the teacher as she does not want to speak to the teacher herself.

It has helped. For example, she was allowed to choose her seat in class this year with her friend next to her. DD goes to an earlier quieter lunch and is allowed to take her friend. They are both library monitors at the same time. Etc. It has definitely helped DD to feel more secure in school.

The friend does like DD a lot. However, I think it might be quite claustrophobic for them both. DD often reports that they've had an argument - one time reporting that her friend said "How do you think I feel, having to be with you 24/7?" 😞

A couple of years ago, the friend's mum actually complained to the school and asked that on certain days, DD be asked not to play with her so that the friend could play with other children by herself. So she had a 'rota' on which days she was allowed to play with her...

DD has had a 'social skills' intervention group, but was told she didn't really need to be in it.. Because she's outwardly confident and knew the basic skills of turn-taking, etc.

I think the thing that I find frustrating is that I now have to potentially pay a send advocate hundreds of pounds to review something that will probably go to appeal, because the LA will refuse to make changes. I don't get it! The whole situation just seems ridiculous!

Can someone give me an example of an outcome and provision that is completely watertight and smart?

I guess I struggle to believe that everyone in this system genuinely wants children to struggle. Surely everyone wants them to thrive to the best or their ability? So if my child isn't getting the intervention that they need, then what .... They'll just say it is tough luck, jog on and find a new school??? Argh. I'm so frustrated! I'm an intelligent degree-educated professional and this is absolutely ridiculous!

@Ehcphelpbeep It is really frustrating but hopefully the LA will agree to some changes that you propose at this stage.

I used the SOSSEN draft EHCP analysis service, it used to be £100 but is now £145 or £175 depending on the deadline. I highly recommend this, although I know this would not be accessible for everyone. You can see more info here - https://sossen.org.uk/#pricing.

This service doesn’t rewrite the draft or give you advice line by line, but it gave me a lot of useful information about what needs to be changed and included some examples from the draft.

I thought I had a good idea of how the draft should look but the analysis picked up lots of things that I would have otherwise missed and also contained a lot of useful information that I used when registering my appeal against the contents of the EHCP.

Thank you. I have also found a really useful document by the national childrens bureau, with examples of great ehcp content. I have more than 7 days, so will look into SOS SEN. Thanks. I just don't understand why they'd waste their time writing an ehcp that isnt watertight, only to have to everyone waste more time amending it! I think we've been lucky that so far we are within our timescale. They've actually been ahead of the timescale for all stages so far and it's been really plain sailing...until now!

Personally, my experience so far is that our LA is just kicking the can down the road and just trying to save money by limiting provision. If the appeal goes in my favour, I guess they will have saved money for a couple of years. If it goes in their favour, I guess it’s several years worth of money saved.

They don't have to make amends requested by parents (just so you know). They only made about 25% of the ones I requested.

@Namechangeagain80 just because DD is outwardly confident and chatty doesn’t mean she doesn’t require support with social communication and interaction. Your post indicates DD does need support with this. Peer support can be helpful, to a point, and beyond that, it can cause issues for the child, the child they are relying on and, sometimes, the staff. From your post, I think it has strayed too far. For DD and the other girl.

@Ehcphelpbeep you don’t have to pay anyone hundreds. Or anyone at all. You can review the draft and make representations yourself. The content of EHCPs is based on the evidence, so it is impossible for anyone here to re-write outcomes and SEP without seeing the evidence. This is why you need to start by going through the evidence and why you may need to go back to/ask the LA to go back to the report writers.

It isn’t about wanting children to struggle. It is about the LA wanting to save money. Not everyone will appeal because not all realise the EHCP is poorly written and some who know it is poor won’t appeal for numerous reasons. Even of people appeal, it delays matters. Although there is no legal entitlement to the best possible provision or education to DC’s maximum potential. The LA wouldn’t say find another school. They will merely say it isn’t detailed, specified and quantified in the EHCP.

Yes, I knew our EHCP was poor but I felt it was more important to have it in place so that DD would get the enhanced transition and additional support in year 7. Due to two tribunal waits the whole process had gone on for 20 months and I couldn't devote any more time to it.

I think it was the right decision in my particular circumstances but obviously what is poor is that LAs routinely write shoddy documents. I have seen a couple of much better ones from other LAs, so I know it could be done.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you, I think so too.

Can I ask something else? (Sorry, not directly related to EHCPs!). At their school, they have forest school for a morning or afternoon every other week. DD used to go happily and, although she can be initially reluctant, does enjoy going to the woods with us.

However, last year it was suddenly impossible to get her to go (mixed in with general EBSA). I think it's a combination of an extended period of free-play, the change to routine and lots of sensory issues with no control (getting wet, muddy, cold, having to get changed, wear layers and different clothing, etc).

It's generally been a morning session and she's just been at home for the morning, then we've taken her in at lunch. (The only alternative the school offered was for her to sit in lessons with the other class in the year which she won't do).

This term however it's an afternoon forest school session. What should the school be doing? I can just imagine they will ask us to pick her up after lunch. (I know it's no different to us having her home for the morning and last year I didn't push it as due to the general EBSA, it felt like a battle not worth fighting - maybe it's still not) but should the school be offering an alternative?

(I also have concerns that we will struggle to get DD into school at all on those days as she will be worried that she will have to go to forest school).

@Namechangeagain80 the school should not be calling you to collect. The school should be making reasonable adjustments either so DD can attend forest school (even if only for part of the session) or an alternative. However, without an EHCP, it may be difficult for the school to provide other provision that isn’t in another class. You could ask if they run any intervention sessions during that time which DD could join. Does DD have any intervention sessions that could be rearranged for that time? Do they have a nurture group? Would going into the class of a different year group work better?

Thanks @Needlenardlenoo that's reassuring to hear. We are in a similar situation, where I don't really want to appeal if I'm honest. The EHCP won't make a blind bit of difference to their current primary education, as their current school are fab and already doing so much! It will be really important for secondary and I really want it in place for naming a school, transition etc.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you again. She is in an emotional literacy group, that was originally meant to be two afternoons a week, then got reduced to one afternoon, but it seems to be very ad-hoc as she hasn't had it for the past couple of weeks...

I will see what the school suggest. Another year could be an option. Last year (year 4) when her year went on a school trip to London, she was able to spend the day in her year 3 teacher (who she really clicked with)'s class. That teacher has gone up with her class so could be a possibility.

The problem with leaving a poor EHCP and thinking you will sort it out later at/for secondary is, even if nothing changes at primary, and it can e.g. a change of leadership can change a whole school or a school may need to review its budget and anything not mandatory cut, it is much easier to go into the phase transfer review with a good existing EHCP that accurately reflects the child’s needs and provision required. A clear example of this is the difficulties many families have as phase transfer when their primary school provides 1:1 without it being detailed, specified and quantified in F.

Yes, that's reasonable.

As a teacher, all of us in education are only one change of Head away from disaster, never mind our children.

All these decisions have short term versus long term aspects and trade-offs.

A further consideration for me was the damage I'd done to my career by essentially working unpaid for hours each week on all the SEN paperwork, and I'm in my 50s so I need to think pension.

Thanks. I am also working in education and work at my child's primary, so have the very fortunate position of knowing what their support looks like on the ground. They are year 6, so we don't have long left.
I think knowing what my child truly gets, what the education system is like and what the secondary school we've chosen is like from insiders (I have 2 teacher friends, one a best friend, who work at the secondary who can testify to the culture, what actual send provision is like, what the senco is like, how children like my child get on there, etc) ... I feel like actually I have a good picture of how my child's provision will be implemented in secondary. The main thing for my child is just being known for their needs, as their challenges are mainly SEMH. My child needs teachers who can tell them to go and take the 5 minutes outside class, instead of immediately giving a detention. It's not really about 1:1s and interventions for our child, it's about him being known and advocated for by the adults. Our named secondary is the only school in the area with a separate sen behaviour policy, which is the main reason I want them to go, because all teachers have to follow the send policy, rather than the standard one. Otherwise my child would end up with endless detentions or worse. So if they don't make changes to our EHCP my gut says it isn't worth the battle, because the transition and being known is the key for them.

I completely understand that @Ehcphelpbeep and I have sent DD to the secondary where I teach, for similar reasons. A separate SEN behaviour policy sounds genius! I must see if I can advocate for that.

I am shocked that more schools don't do it! It's amazing in terms of advocating for the children vs teachers who can't foster a psychologically safe classroom! My best friend thinks my child will be completely fine there, which is so reassuring. I'll be honest, my child will probably end up sharing their EHCP provision with other children with similar needs who don't have an EHCP, but I don't feel hard done by, because I know the culture is neuro-affirming and I'm lucky to have an EHCP, so if my son's resources can help other children like him then that is the best we'll get in the situation we are in. That's sort of how I feel, knowing what mainstream education is like!! And we are fortunate that my son isn't behind on the curriculum etc, it's just he has a really rough time of navigating school socially and emotionally. Bless him ❤️ I hope your DC is doing ok!

She is all right, thank you @Ehcphelpbeep.

She enjoys the social side of school fortunately.

Hi all, back again...after a relatively quiet front on the EHCP/EOTIS battle, and the weeks of worrying about Kent test and school preferences for my son, plus the first term back which is always a punch in the face! I'm glad to have made the decision for him finally, he's coming to my school, I've skimmed the thread and I think some of you are doing the same...we are a grammar but we have enough Send pupils for us to have the training we TC we need, but not so many that he'll get lost. I think I'm so scared that he's going to go the same way as DD, but I handled it before I guess...he's also had an earlier diagnosis and much more input at primary, plus I know so much more now.

I had mediation with the LA over the wording of DDs EHCP, which is still written for school, and the fact that they've only given her two very basic provisions. Was all very reasonable, 2 hours long, everything agreed to....that was two weeks ago, I've heard nothing, had no response, caseworker hasn't responded to any email in over 3 months...so the tribunal paperwork and certificate will be sent off this week. All they have to do is amend the EHCP so it reflects EOTIS and add in the provision for PFA...that's it! They're paying for mentoring she can't do, because it's unsuitable, and the mentoring company have offered an alternative but haven't been able to get any reply from the caseworker to agree to change the provision from online 3 X a week to a farm visit once a month, which would cost less. They also have not stated anywhere that she should do the entirety of her GCSES online, which is incredibly worrying as she's year 11 and I'm so scared they're going to take it away for next September.

In a 'oddly' timed move from the LA, they also responded to my stage one complaint, made in April, a week before mediation, to offer 4.5K as compensation for her missed education!

It's going into savings to pay for her online school for next year if they decide to take it away...just hoping UC will let me disregard it for that reason, but probably not, which means I'll lose a grand of it over the course of the year, which is a pain but not the end of the world...I'd have to find about 1.5K, which with her PIP changeover coming up in April, is a huge concern..but that's a worry for next year.

She's doing well, attending most lessons online, not interested in doing much else and still having 'crash' days, but also just so much happier in herself. Still working on self care and trying to get her to work with a mentor, but at the moment things are good enough. Just makes me angry that the LA have just basically washed their hands of us and she's has such basic bloody provision.

I guess I can just put in the appeal paperwork, then let them have until the end of the 4 weeks to make contact....I'm not holding my breath!

Just makes me so angry, I'm going to have to start the endless emails and paperwork again.

Does anyone know if I can ask for a closer hearing date as she's officially in a phase transfer year? Or how I do that?

You can request an expedited hearing on the basis DD is out of school. You can do that via a SEND7 once you have appealed - wait until the LA have responded to the appeal and don’t forget to seek the LA’s views first. You can’t appeal the phase transfer EHCP until the phase transfer EHCP has been finalised. The deadline for this for transition to post 16 is 31st March. So your content appeal won’t yet be expedited on the basis it is a phase transfer.

Sometimes settlements can be disregarded under Schedule 10 of the Universal Credit Regs 2013.