Support please for getting DS (5mo) sleep habits to improve

[essenceofSES]

Sorry, this is likely to be long as I'm going to try and give all info up front. (Hate those threads where iy gradually trickles out!)

Background
DS was born in May by CS. He instantly latched well to feed but wanted to feed almost constantly. I realised this was quite normal for a newborn but the second night in hospital, neither of us got much sleep and the next morning MW set us up to co-sleep for a few hours so I could get some rest. She said it wasn't policy to do so but she could see it was needed. It worked really well.
First night home we really struggled so the second night tried co-sleeping again and again it worked really well so we continued.
DS continued to need constant feeding and didn't gain weight so I felt really pressurised to feed well so he could put on weight. I was determined to continue excl BF so stuck with the co-sleeping to ensure the weight went on.
When he was a month old he was finally diagnosed with a tongue tie. By this time he'd dropped drom 75th centile at birth to 2nd centile. Fortunately he was happy and healthy in every other way and from when he had his tongue tie sorted he started putting on weight and now - at 21 weeks - is back up to 25th centile and still excl BF.
At 10wks, we moved his cot next to my side of the bed and took the side off so my mattress was immediately next to his with the aim of gradually getting him to sleep there.
We're now in the situation where he will - on a good night - sleep in his cot for the first 2 or 3 hrs before rolling from his mattress to mine. If I feed him and try and put him back in his cot asleep, he wakes up and cries and DH says "Just bring him into bed".
The other issue is that due to the co-sleeping, he is used to feeding to sleep and has only ever fallen asleep whilst feeding or in the car and a couple of times out walking in the buggy.
Finally, the other thing that's brought this to a head is that he's just got his 2 bottom teeth and as he falls asleep on me, he's catching me with his teeth. Not quite a bite but enough for me to feel the pain.

What I want to achieve

• him sleeping in his cot overnight
• him settling himself to sleep

and ultimately

• him being able to have a daytime nap in his cot
• him sleeping through

My plan
The next couple of days I have stuff going on so Wednesday, DH will put the side of the cot back on and from Wed evening,

• I will do a bedtime routine with a feed, bath, change into vest and gro-bag and final feed.
• As DS starts to fall asleep, I will delatch him and put him down on his back in his cot.
• If he doesn't settle, I'll repeat the final feed and last step. I'll only repeat this once though.
• If he still doesn't settle, I'll try pick up, put down method

My questions

• Does my plan make sense?
• What time do you think I should do his bedtime routine? Currently he falls asleep on me at about 9pm and them has another feed around 10pm which he falls asleep on and gets transferred onto his mattress.
• I think consistency is key but if it gets to 3am and neither of us has had any sleep, do I persist with pick up, put down?
• Any other tips?
• Anyone likely to be around in the early hours of Thurs morning to help me stay strong? (DH and I have agreed he will sleep in the spare room whilst I get this sorted).

Really not looking forward to doing this but I know in the long run, once it's cracked, it will be much better.

I too am sitting here stressing that ds will wake up. Totally feeling that this is not natural and not what my instinct tells me to do. We've paid for private sleep support, at first I thought it was just controlled crying but I understand a bit more now. Its supposed to be a gentle and responsive approach but how can anything be gentle when he's just lying there screaming and thrashing around, looking desperate! I can go in as many times as I need to but must leave swiftly, he keeps crying, stopping briefly when I put my hand on him but starts as soon as I leave. Tonight he went to sleep after 25 mins, he isn't screaming as loudly as last night, i don't think he can as his throat is so raspy. I feel truely awful, this does not fit with how I intended to parent!
....He's just woken up after an hour sleep, took 10 mins of crying to resettle by replacing dummy and ssh, patting.
Advisor said tonight may be even harder than last night. She supports co-sleeping if thats what I need to do, just not feeding all night. I need to try to get to 12pm without feeding him.
My friend has said this can take two wks -surely not two wks of this?? Will ask the advisor tomorrow.
She wants DH to do both nights at the weekend, problem I have is DH has never been able to settle DS, my fault I am sure for offering too much comfort, DS screams louder when DH goes in. I am very worried about tomorrow night, it might break me..
Ses I can only imagine how you must feel without DH there, I am thinking of you, be strong...Febes wishing you a night of freedom tomorrow!

Good luck minnie, early night, sensible lady...why am i not doing the same!

Tomthumb I'm glad ( well not glad but you know what I mean...) that your DS does the crying, screaming, thrashing and your advisor said to go in try and calm him and go out. Thats what I have been doing and I feel like I'm leaving him but being there isn't helping him either. It was 20 mins less than last night so I guess thats a positive.

Sometimes I think- what am I doing? Surely if I just cave in and do what he clearly wants ie feed him then he will eventually get it. He's so young and I'm being a mean mum and wanting my evenings to myself a bit. But I know that he will be happier when he gets good sleep. Its just so hard.

Happy settled sleeps everyone.

Feeling much better. This is how he slept last night:

6.40pm sleep
9.10pm wake up and feed
9.45pm sleep
1.10am wake up and feed
1.30am sleep
1.40am wake up and try to settle
1.55am sleep
5.10am wake up and lie chatting in cot
5.30am feed
6am sleep

Hopefully he'll stay asleep for another hour or so!

Hope you've all had improved nights.

ses that's a massive improvement, well done.
We also had a much better night,

6.50 sleep
7.25 crying in cot, constantly went in to reassure
8pm sleep
8.55 cried on and off for 10 mins
12.35am cried for 10 mins, sounded hungry so fed
1am sleep in cot
5.30 fed, back down in cot
7.30 woke up

I'm just amazed! Hope everyone is seeing results!

wow, seems like our dc have turned a corner, i also had a better night
7.00 sleep
10.30 woke for a feed
10.40 projectile vomited all over herself so needed to be changed
11 sleep
11.45 awake and happy kicking in cot so left in there
1.00 fed to sleep, at this point thought it was more important that she slept than how she fell asleep
1.10 stirred so i rocked her back to sleep and she drifted straight off
5.50 fed then straight back to sleep
8.15 awake
i feel like i made some good progress last night, even though i fed her back to sleep a few times she didnt object to being pulled off while semi awake and i put her down sort of awake and she stretched, got comfortable and went to sleep, she's never done that before!!! i just wish she hadnt been sick all over herself or i think she wouldnt have woken up.
sounds like you guys had some great nights, im glad we are reaping the rewards of a few terrible nights sleep

That's great TomThumbMum and Minnie

DS didn't stay asleep at 6. He woke up at 6.15. I tried settling him til 7 but he wasn't having it as he was awake.
Minnie, like you I still need to work on self settling as he was falling asleep on me when I fed. I did try to de-latch and put down promptly.

My HV suggested I focussed on self settling for his daytime nap(s). Bit tricky today and tomorrow as today I'm meeting up with my boss to discuss my return to work in Feb so he'll probably nap in the car. Tomorrow I have a spa day with the other girls in my NCT group so DS is staying with DH. Could be interesting!!

Febes - hope you had a better night too?

Well done ladies

Wow great nights! What an improvement from just 4 days ago for all of us.

DS slept fairly well too. He still woke but quickly resettled twice and then woke properly at 6.15 (similar to Ses) I waited till 6.45 to feed him as I was trying for 7am but he wanted a feed. He fell straight back to sleep so I woke him at 7.30 for the other side.

I have just put him down for a nap but he is protesting a bit. I'll give him a few more mintues before going up. Hopefully he will go 2 hours like yesterday and then he will go through till 7pm with out getting overtired.

Ses- at your spa day. that DH has DS- maybe he will be more understanding about how demanding babies are.

oooh spa day, I'm very jealous! I'm contemplating a shopping trip tomorrow but may have to see how harrowing I find tonight!! I really need to get a grip!

Managed routine on time this evening and DS is now asleep in cot
He didn't do v well for daytime naps today as I was out and about. Think he just had 30mins at about 1pm.

Really looking forward to tomorrow. May paint my toe nails later!

Hope you've all had good days and nights are good.

DH is trying alone to settle him tonight. Ds has just woken after 35 min sleep and I'm sitting downstairs trying not to get involved. ds is screaming, this is so so hard....
Wishing you all a successful and peaceful night.

im in the same boat, all is quiet in the room next door, dp is settlingy dd after her bath and feed. im enjoying a glass on wine and mn things seem so much brighter this side of the week than the beginning

minnie I'm with you, glass of wine in hand!
Took dh half an hr, same as me last night. Sure he feels empowered, knowing for the first time that he can settle ds.
Feel for the first time that this is the right thing to do. Ds is having a bottle when he wakes, my choice but advisor thinks it will help. Trying to get to 1am before giving this as he went that long last night.
By the way, I was told to drop the lullaby Cd I used at bedtime feed, no further stimulant that way. Also try to be robotic in settling, quick face stroke and ssh ssh then leave, it seems to b working for dh too. Don't know if that might help any of you ladies....

Good and bad from last night. It went something like this...

7.10 -sleep
9.40 - wake up, change & feed
10.50 - sleep
2.10 - wake up & feed
3.05 - sleep
3.50 - wake up&feed
4.40 - sleep
7.20 - wake up

The main negative was that I was awake from 2.10-4.50!

Right, best get ready! Did I mention I'm off on a spa day today??!

DS was a nightmare to get to sleep last night. Probably felt sorse as we were going out. He fell straight to sleep at 6.30 as he hadn't had good naps yesterday so was knackered.
He woke after 45mins and then cried for an hour and 10 mins so the same as last night. He doesn't seem to able able to be soothed at this time. I feed him in the dark, no stimulation, then shush/ pat and leave for a few minutes. DH tried to settle him too but he just cries.
I'm pretty happy with the rest of the night. I woke him for a late dream feed at 12.30am when we got home and I think he woke once but went straight back to sleep and then wanted a feed one side at 6 went back to sleep then fed at 7.30 and him and dh are still sleeping upstairs now.

I guess I really need to work on the 7pm settling time and moving the wake up time to 7 rather than 6.

So much better than this time last week though when he was waking every 2 hours for feeds.

Hope you are all having good weekends.

Last night was not good, dh did not handle it well, sat at the end of the bed saying how wrong this was at 1am as ds spent 10 mins screaming. He has spent the las few weeks trying to convince me that it was the right thing to do! This really knocked my confidence and I couldn't sleep. I'm doing it alone tonight. Waiting for ds to wake up, he's had poor naps today as we've been so busy, am expecting another hard night as last night was just the same as night two.
Wishing you all well this evening, hope the spa was relaxing and rejuvenating Ses!

So the last few nights DS has gone straight to sleep after a bath and feed and then woken up 45 mins later and screamed for about an hour. Tonight I didn't feed him again but went in and calmed him by putting him over my shoulder, patting his back and shushing then put him down and left him for 10 mins. It took 5 times doing this for him to go to sleep. I didn't use music so as not to stimulate and tried to keep constant and quick.

Questions
My HV said it was too early for CC. Is this too much like CC??
Should I just feed him again if he wakes up?
Would you do anything differently?
Should I just stay with him until he falls asleep instead of leaving him for x mins????
Do you think I should post these questions on another thread to get the opinions of some sleep experts(not that you aren't experts by now )
Should I just keep doing what I am doing and he will slowly get the idea??

well i never....the impossible has happened, dd got put into her crib awake and dp left the room and there was no sound, not even a mouse, she has finally fallen asleep on her own, im so proud!!!
hmm, as for your questions febes, id say putting baby over your shoulder or holding them while they are crying isnt cc, i wouldnt be able to do cc but its different i think if you are there and comforting them because they know you are there.
im quite of ses right now!

I've just spent a week getting my soon to be 16 weeker to sleep through as my boss is back to work and cannot cope with being up in the night and working a 12 hour day (yet I am perfectly capable according to her [hmmm] ) anyhoo... here's a brief before and after of bubba's timings:

Before: 6pm feed
630 bath
715 bed, settled to sleep with 2-3oz of milk, as won't settle without a nipple
12am awake for a feed and change
3-445am awake for a chat and a play (not really enjoyed by momma)
5-630 back to sleep
630am up squawking for the day, feed and a change

It took 5 nights and a small amount of crying (less than an hour a night really) to get her to do this:
6pm feed
630 bath
7 bed, settled with a dummy if she cries but she has hardly needed it
11 feed and a change, she is barely awake
6ish she wakes but resettles herself within a half hour and goes back to sleep til 730 when we get her up for the day

It's made a huge difference, mainly in her Momma as she has relaxed a lot more and realized that sometimes a small amount of crying can lead to positive results. I don't think a 4 month old is ready for heavy duty CC but she has shown that given a bit of gentle encouragement she will sleep longer and better at night! Her day time naps are fairly regular now too, around 9-11am and 1-3pm. It took me a week of clock watching and cue watching but I am pleased with the results! My advise is persevere: your bubbas will get there in the end

Febes, Clearly I'm not a sleep expert but I am paying one a healthy sum! She says I'm not doing cc as we can go in as often as we feel necessary, either pat or pick up, no time restrictions. Ds got to 1am on night 3 before a feed so that was our aim last night.......
An amazing thing has happened, no tears last night, quick dummy replacement after short cry at1am, I fed at. 4am then straight back in cot with no fuss and he just woke up.

I think its really helped that we stayed for less time in his room, quick pat and reassure then leave. He also had to go down awake so he could learn to self soothe. Am desperately hoping we have turned a corner...

Wow great night Tomthumb and thanks mananny for your experience.

I guess if I keep going he will get the picture we are only 5 night in.

Last night I gave him a dreamfeed at 11.15 (he woke just before I went up) The DH got home from work at 4am and he must have disturbed both DS and me so I thought if I feed him he should sleep through till after 7. But no- he woke at 6 again so I waited for him to resettle but he hadn't by 6.30 so I fed him.
I should have left him at 4 I guess. I guess I feel a bit disheartened as DH was working so had to do bedtime alone and now on his only day off this week he needs to sleep so I'm with DCs on my own again. DH is then rebuilding our garden fence later . Think I need to organise a day of doing something on my own soon.

How's everyone getting on?
Sorry I've not posted for a couple of days. Had a great time at the spa but had a headache all day Sat & Sun.

DS had two 45min naps in his cot today but is now struggling to settle this evening. Took 3 goes to get him settled and then he woke up after half an hour. He's quiet at the moment but I keep hearing murmurings. I could really do with a good night.

Morning!

Last night was a bit of a failure re routine. DS took an hour to settle in his cot and then woke up crying after an hour. Managed to get him back asleep in his cot for 8.45pm but then he woke up at 11.20 and after an hour I was still struggling and tired so I brought him into bed for the rest of the night. Feel bad but also know I needed a good night after my weekend headache. I guess tonight I just try again and hope I haven't confused him.

I'm sure one night won't undo the great work you have been doing Ses.
We seem to be at a stalemate here. R took an hour to get the sleep lastnight then woke when I went to bed at 10 so I fed him and he then woke at 12.30 (I fed him) 3.30 (I fed him) and 6.30. I tried to leave him to settle each time but he was crying which sounds much louder at night. Do you think I should hold off on 1 or 2 of the feeds?? Last week he just stirred and then resettled. He is napping now so hopefully he will go for a couple of hours.
I hope you're feeling better after the headache Ses

Thanks Febes. I'll just try again tonight.

Also, if I were in your position I'd be feeding. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do but our babies are at the stage where they can start waking more in the night as they're growing and developing lots at the moment.