Support please for getting DS (5mo) sleep habits to improve

[essenceofSES]

Sorry, this is likely to be long as I'm going to try and give all info up front. (Hate those threads where iy gradually trickles out!)

Background
DS was born in May by CS. He instantly latched well to feed but wanted to feed almost constantly. I realised this was quite normal for a newborn but the second night in hospital, neither of us got much sleep and the next morning MW set us up to co-sleep for a few hours so I could get some rest. She said it wasn't policy to do so but she could see it was needed. It worked really well.
First night home we really struggled so the second night tried co-sleeping again and again it worked really well so we continued.
DS continued to need constant feeding and didn't gain weight so I felt really pressurised to feed well so he could put on weight. I was determined to continue excl BF so stuck with the co-sleeping to ensure the weight went on.
When he was a month old he was finally diagnosed with a tongue tie. By this time he'd dropped drom 75th centile at birth to 2nd centile. Fortunately he was happy and healthy in every other way and from when he had his tongue tie sorted he started putting on weight and now - at 21 weeks - is back up to 25th centile and still excl BF.
At 10wks, we moved his cot next to my side of the bed and took the side off so my mattress was immediately next to his with the aim of gradually getting him to sleep there.
We're now in the situation where he will - on a good night - sleep in his cot for the first 2 or 3 hrs before rolling from his mattress to mine. If I feed him and try and put him back in his cot asleep, he wakes up and cries and DH says "Just bring him into bed".
The other issue is that due to the co-sleeping, he is used to feeding to sleep and has only ever fallen asleep whilst feeding or in the car and a couple of times out walking in the buggy.
Finally, the other thing that's brought this to a head is that he's just got his 2 bottom teeth and as he falls asleep on me, he's catching me with his teeth. Not quite a bite but enough for me to feel the pain.

What I want to achieve

• him sleeping in his cot overnight
• him settling himself to sleep

and ultimately

• him being able to have a daytime nap in his cot
• him sleeping through

My plan
The next couple of days I have stuff going on so Wednesday, DH will put the side of the cot back on and from Wed evening,

• I will do a bedtime routine with a feed, bath, change into vest and gro-bag and final feed.
• As DS starts to fall asleep, I will delatch him and put him down on his back in his cot.
• If he doesn't settle, I'll repeat the final feed and last step. I'll only repeat this once though.
• If he still doesn't settle, I'll try pick up, put down method

My questions

• Does my plan make sense?
• What time do you think I should do his bedtime routine? Currently he falls asleep on me at about 9pm and them has another feed around 10pm which he falls asleep on and gets transferred onto his mattress.
• I think consistency is key but if it gets to 3am and neither of us has had any sleep, do I persist with pick up, put down?
• Any other tips?
• Anyone likely to be around in the early hours of Thurs morning to help me stay strong? (DH and I have agreed he will sleep in the spare room whilst I get this sorted).

Really not looking forward to doing this but I know in the long run, once it's cracked, it will be much better.

wow!!! well done you!! thats a breakthrough!!! maybe i should try something similar tonight to break the feed to sleep cycle.

Thanks! He's still asleep!!! 2hrs 25mins and counting! He's thrown my planned routine out

blimey, thats great!! Dd managed a good 2 hours this afternoon and had been up for an hour. im making a note of when she goes to sleep after naps so i can gauge when i should be starting her night time routine. im aiming to get her in bed for about half eight, that'll be 2 hours 15 mins since she woke from her nap, does that sound about right?!

Oh help screaming baby.....I put him to bed at 7 and he has been cry ever since even with me lying beside him. I'm down stair at the moment but its so hard to listen to. I'd better get up there again.

Minnie 2 hours sounds good thats when I put him down for next nap or bed time.

Ses well done. Maybe I should try singing.

Oh Febes that's so hard. Everyone tells me to persevere and be consistent but it's not easy. Hope things have calmed down or do so soon.

I'm about to feed DS and then go and bath him. Much later than planned. He slept for just under 3hrs in the end. I gave him a feed when he woke up and he's been playing for about 45mins.

Fingers crossed for all of us!

He's just gone quiet. I gave him teething powders and calpol as he was really unhappy. I have also put a sipper cup of cool boiled water beside my bed so will try that in the night before I cave and feed.

Well done O on the 3 hour nap!! Have you read Gina Ford Contented little baby? Its a bit contraversal especially on MN but I read it with DD and have had a relook today. I found it a good base to know what naps and timings to follow with DD- might be worth a look.

Hello all, please can I join? Ds is 25wks, used to self settle but since his 17 wk injections we've spiralled out of control to a cosleeping, constant night feeding and he only naps in the car or if I lie next to him. Today a sleep specialist came round and tonight I put him down in his cot, first time in four wks that he hasn't spent the evening with me. He screamed, and I mean screamed for 45 mins, we were only to say night night, replace dummy and blanket then leave, we did this every few mins. He's been quiet, I assume sleeping for 1hr 40. Its been so hard, I'm exhausted from 6 mnths without sleep but honestly think this is now the only way. I have been watchng this thread and feel that we are doing the right thing to teach our babies that sleep is good. My ds is super alert and I never thought we could do this, am hoping to keep up with your success stories to know that we can get through this. I've cried enough tears today! Hope you are all getting somewhere and be strong through the night.I think it may be a long one

Hello TomThumbMum
Good to have another to share this rollercoaster with!
I hope your 1hr 40 stretches out into a good sleep spell.

Well I did Owen's feed, bath, massage, change, feed. He seemed sleepy and stopped feeding at about 9.05pm so I put him down in his cot. Ever since I've just had crying. Tried talking, patting, "sh"ing, singing and nothing really works. Also tried teething remedies as he's chomping away. Nearly 2hrs since last feed so I've caved and am feeding him...

Hope you're all doing ok.

Well our night was better than I thought it was going to be but I do think I still need to get tougher. The good news though is that DS hasn't slept in bed with me at all!

His nap went on til 7pm in the end which was 2hrs45. I fed him as soon as he woke up and he had a good focussed feed for 15 mins. Then he had play time til 8.10pm when I tried to feed him again but he wouldn't take much so I took him upstairs for his bath. Then did massage, then put vest & Gro-bag on. Then sat in bed feeding him. As he got sleepy I put him in his cot and he just started crying & wriggling. I stayed singing & stroking him but he just got angry and started chomping on his hand. I tried teething remedies and put him down again. By 10pm I tried pick up/ put down a few times and ended up crying in my arms. At 10.45pm it was 2hrs since his last feed so I fed him again. He fell asleep on me in about 10 mins so I transferred him to cot with a bit of "sh"ing and patting. He stayed there asleep til 1.55am. He woke moaning but didn't open his eyes so I fed him and put him back down and he was asleep again by 2.25am. He then woke again at 4am so I repeated feed and put down. He then woke at 5.25am with his arm stuck through the bars of the cot. I tried putting him straight and stroking but didn't work. He got quite angry again so picked him up. Didn't seem to help but hung on til 6am before feeding him. Again he then went to sleep and is now back in his cot.

Sorry for big paragraph! Would you guys have done anything differently?

Really cross with DH. We agreed he'd sleep in spare room. At 5.50am his alarm went off so I left DS in his cot and went and asked DH to cuddle him for 10 mins. He said no as he found it all v difficult & strange, he'd want to just bring him into bed and he didn't have time as he had to get up. He said he was sorry but he just couldn't. He then stayed in bed until 6.25am.

How have you all got on?

hello there tomthumbmum, welcome!! i havent heard of contented little baby, what is it based on? ses, i dont think i would have done anything differently, it sounds like you did really well. i found that waking dd up earlier so she would have her naps earlier and be ready for bed earlier really worked, she was in bed asleep by 8 last night, a big improvment on half ten the previous night, half eleven the night before and half twelve the night before that. Unfortunately the night waking was bad last night, 9.30-10,11, 12, 12.45, 4.30 at which point i just kept her in bed, i was shattered, she slept until half eight/half past. im doing as the ncss says and waiting to see if she is properly awake before i tend to her and then pulling her off the nipple before she is properly asleep but it doesnt seem to be making any difference to night wakings. i think i might have to see if dp will do a few night shifts the break the pattern, do you think that might help?

Hey Ses, just thought I'd give you some commentary that might be helpful (please ignore if not) from a bit further down the line. At just about 4 months I started NCSS with DD and then at just over 5 months started PU/PD with her to get her to self-settle. We progressed at just before 5 months to being able to put her down for a nap in her cot by cuddling her to sleep on my shoulder and then putting her down asleep. At that stage, she was doing about 2-2.5 hours awake before being ready for a nap. With PU/PD the 1st night she slept 5 hours from falling asleep (6.5 hours from last feed) - unheard of! Has been hit and miss since then. She now goes for all her naps during day without feeding to sleep - try to put her down awake, but sometimes she does still fall asleep on the shoulder. She can definitely self-settle, as I've seen her stir from a nap, roll over and re-settle no probs. I am not expecting her to sleep through the night yet (probably not until she is on 3 good meals a day - ca. 9 months-ish), if it happens before then, then yay! Once she got better at going for naps during the day, she got better at sleeping at night (although to contradict that, last week she had rubbish day naps on a couple of days and slept even better at night). We have still had some nights of her being wide awake in the night (doesn't want to feed to sleep, just wants to be awake (grrr!)) - I'm taking that as a developmental spurt, as she's just started crawling and clapping, so she likes to try those out. We're still perservering with not feeding her more than 4 hourly at night now, which she is pretty much going with, but now we've hit a patch of a couple of days where she is not very well and she is sleeping lots in the day but when she wakes at night is just sobbing her heart out, so being the softie that I am, I'm just feeding her and she has gone back to needing to feed to sleep - I really think she's in discomfort and I think a tooth might be coming through, but even calpol isn't hitting the mark (I'm quite cautious with it), but the booby is. I'm relaxed now though, 'cos we went through the 26 weeks "Wonder Week" where she was on a massive development spurt and I did have to feed her more at night for a few nights, then she went back to more settled. During that time, I perservered with putting her down for daytime naps without feeding to sleep though. I also have a fixed bedtime routine starting at 6.20pm (earlier if she's really tired). Sometimes this means she is fed straight after bath and pyjamas and goes to sleep, sometimes she waits for her feed until after DS' bedtime story (depends how tired she is). But, even if she doesn't want to go to bed then (i.e. yesterday, routine all to pot and she napped to late in afternoon), she stays in her room until she goes to sleep - no coming downstairs like she used to . So she didn't go down until 8.30pm last night, but we were in her room all that time (after DS' story). She is now pretty consistently sleeping from bedtime until 6-7am-ish, just waking for feeds in between.

So, in sumary ( at long post), we started with NCSS, progressed to PU/PD. Found getting self-settling for daytime naps (at fairly consistent times, e.g. 2.5 hours after she wakes for day and then 2.5-3 hours from when she woke from her first nap and then usually not giving her a nap then until bedtime - but every baby is different on their requirements) easier to start on. Have a consistent bedtime routine and don't let her come downstairs from bedtime onwards. These have helped us and no, we're not on a sleep through the night yet and I'm still on another sleep thread for support, but just wanted to say that I have been where you are and it is getting better. Have to say that DD does sleep better in her own room too (but I have a bed in there next to her cot, which makes things easier!). Don't be put off by the 6 month growth spurt and don't be afraid to feed DS more when he hits it (he will need it and it will pass, probably within about 5 days). HTH and if not, please just ignore my post!

Thanks Star
What you've said about trying to self settle in the day first and that helps at night totally agrees with what my HV said today when I had DS weighed.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience.

How's everyone else doing?

Hi everyone. I had a good night. After the huge crying session he finally fell asleep at 8.30pm and I gave him a dream feed at 10.30.
He woke at 1.50am I popped on the musical teddy and he went back to sleep.
He woke at 3.35am I popped on the musical teddy and he went back to sleep.
He then woke at 5.50 but didn't go back to sleep so I feed him at 6.15am on one side then we dozed until 7 when I feed him then other side and we got up.

Hooray!!!

He is now having his 3rd nap of the day. We went to toddler group this morning so he napped in the buggy on the way there and on the way back for about an hour each. He went down in his cot without a single sound at 2pm.

I feel so happy that he is going so long without feeds at night and this will hopefully develop into not waking. The musical teddy is working a treat. It plays 10 mins of quiet music with a light night light then goes off so I'm using it for all naps and sleep time in his cot.

I still need to sort out bedtime as this is now the only time I get crying. I bath him and DD and then we all have stories with in DDs room and DD goes to bed. I then take DS into our room and put him in his sleeping bag and feed him and put him to bed awake but sleepy he then screams for an hour while I shush, pat, musical teddy, leave him, stress out, cuddle, maybe feed again if I get desparate and then he finally conks out.

Ses Well done on the first night in the cot. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. at your DH. Make sure you tell him you need a sleep in on his next day off. Maybe try to help him (DS)settle without a feed during the night or stretch feeds out to 4 hourly if you can. But it sounds like you are doing really well.

Hi Tomthumb welcome to our self-settle support group.

Hi all,
It was a long night, ds woke at 10.00pm, crie for 20 mins while we went in and reassured, slept til midnight when I fed him and put him back in cot and he cried until 2am I then brought him to bed with me and he slept til 5.30am when I fed him, put him back down to sleep until he woke at 6.35am. I was disappointed that I had had to bring him in with me, however, my lovely sleep advisor was really pleased and helped me see the positives - down to one night feed (from 9 times a night) and two lots of self settling, which we haven't had any of for months now! We're going to try to crack the night before moving on to naps so I have been napping with ds today to try to prepare for another sleepless night. He only naps for half an hour unless cuddled tight, which I have to stop.
Ses, one thing I have been advised to do is feed no more than 3 hourly during the day, I was feeding on demand. I'm told that by feeding three hourly he will get a big feed - I'm giving it a try.
Minnie, on Friday and Saturday night DH is going to do the whole night settling and give DS a bottle if needs be. I'm told that this may even be a positive for their relationship as DS only wants to be comforted by me at the moment, I'm a bit of an emotional wreck so this might break the cycle for us - could work for you if your DH is willing to give it a go.

Febes, sounds like a great night, total achievement I am astounded how anyone can go through this and cope with two dcs. I think i'm destined to just have one!

TomThumb You will get through this and it sounds like you are on your way to more settled sleeping. Well done on enlisting support- have you paid privately for it?? Are they good?? 3 nights ago DS was waking 4 times a night for feeds so it is possible to turn it around quickly. Good idea to focus on night first. I also agree about 3 hourly feeds as DS was snacking and not having full feeds and I'm now being more aware of his feeding, activity and napping times. I would highly reccomend CLB book by Gina Ford BTW.

Ok, needing some encouragement.
DS just had 2 half hour naps today at 11am and 1.15pm. Tried putting him down in his Gro-bag at 4pm after a feed but he just wouldn't settle no matter what I tried. Took him downstairs for play time at 5pm and he quickly got grouchy. Fed him at 5.30pm and then brought him up and just finished bath and massage. Now feeding.
He just now seems over tired. I've also had a headache since the 5.25 wake up this morning. Tried paracetamol and no better.

Hope your evenings are all going well.

hi all, well today hasnt been good for naps, but little miss is seeming very sleepy now, lets hope its not a nap to stay up late and she stays asleep, dp is currently rocking her to sleep to try and break the feed to sleep habit, ive tried and she just will not have it from me. what is this musical bear, it sounds magic!!!!! i think i need one!

He has been screaming for last 45 mins, bloody musical teddy not doing a thing. It's only the bedtime put down thats not working. He isn't over tired as he had a 2 hour nap from 2-4. I woke him at 4 so he would be ready to go back down at 7. I feed him in the quiet dark room after his bath. What am I doing wrong???? My SIL (who lives with us) is trying to pat him at the moment but I can still hear him screaming. I lay down beside him before and he still screamed.
It's a frog actually made by Leapfrog and has daytime and nighttime modes. DD was given it for christmas.kind of like this

Seems we are all finding things challenging...
DS is asleep atm ( since 6.40pm) which is great but I'm feeling really low. Think I'm just tired and lonely with DH away. Waiting for friend to phone as her DH is in hospital. We can have a moan to eachother...

Keep going though everyone. Hopefully in a week we'll all be pleased we put the effort in.

Oh Ses I understand!! Non MN hugs for you. You will look back on this time in a few months when he is sleeping so much better and it won't seem so bad. I promise. Have you got wine in the house?? Or have a long soak in the bath. Look after yourself. It does get easier. DD is nearly 2 and most nights she sleeps 12 hours- although the behaviour during the day does get more challenging and exhausting!

DS has gone quiet finally after an hour and 10 mins. I have been invited to my neighbours tomorrow for singstar and wine and DH's are playing poker and we really want to go so hopefully he will be quicker to sleep. SIL will babysit but I can't leave until he is asleep.

Thanks Febes. I feel like I'm just sitting here stressing thinking he's about to wake up! It just doesn't feel naural! I know in a few nights it'll be much easier!
Good to hear of your success with DD. Hope you get to go out tomorrow too!!

He woke up at 9.10pm so I'm now feeding him. Just hope he goes back to sleep ok. When he does, I'm going to try and get some sleep too.

Thats great he went 3 hours!! Hope you get some sleep and O has a settled night.

i think we all deserve a big pat on the back for trying to change things for the better, we all could have carried on on the easy route but we want to change things for a better, just remember its a one step back to go forward thing and things will be better next week and then the week after that they will be better again.
Well tonight so far has been quite good....dd woke up 40 mins into her sleep, it would seem this is a danger zone so i shall be on the ball next sleep and i fed her then rocked her and she went back to sleep and has been there ever since!! i cant believe it!! however, i am aware that this early night will lead to an early morning so im off to get some shut eye, hope you ladies do ok tonight and speak tomoz for a debrief! x