Ways to get my 4 month old to sleep better at night?

[Schulte]

DD2 (nearly 4 months) had weeks of sleeping really well, going to bed at 7.30pm, settling herself to sleep, waking up for one feed at 4am. Then she had her first set of jabs at 12 weeks and all hell broke loose. She got diarrhoea and started waking up several times a night to poo and feed. Her first waking of the night happened earlier and earlier until I decided I might as well introduce a dream feed. But now her poos are finally back to normal and I need her sleep pattern to improve again, as I am permanently exhausted.

Currently she goes to bed at 7.30, self settles, has a dream feed at 10pm, then wakes around 2am. Sometimes I can get her back to sleep without a feed at that time (by rubbing her tummy or giving her the occasional dummy), then she'll wake up for a feed around 3.30. After that, she'll sleep a little, then wake up again at 5.45 and I have to take her into bed with me to get another half hour before DD1 gets up for the day! So all in all, I am up three times a night. What I want her to do is 5-6 hours after her dream feed. Surely that's not asking too much at this age?!

So what do I do?

Simply not feed her before 4am in the hope that she'll eventually get the message and not bother waking up?

Try to fill her up with a bottle of formula at 10pm?

Feed her at 2am but make that feed shorter and shorter until she drops it herself?

Drop the dream feed - actually I have tried that and she wakes up for it now because she's used to it!

Give up trying to change her sleep pattern and pray that she'll sort herself out some time soon?

Sorry for epic post but I feel you need all the information... Any ideas greatly appreciated!

Sorry, Feierabend, don't know why I said Boobz when I had you in my head - good luck anyway. I wish good luck to everyone going through this!

hey hey, things not worse but stranger in our house. I feel less exhausted and ds is happier because a strange phenomenom has been happening. Last night he woke at 1230 and i brought him into bed with me to feed him. The next thing I looked at the clocked and it's ten to two and he's still latched on but asleep. So I popped him back in bed, went back to sleep. The he woke me at 4am, and the same thing happened only when I looked at the clock it was 530am . Weird. I'm just falling asleep while feeding him.

I'm abit confused as to whether this is a good thing or not.

good thing because

1. I get rest,
2. he gets nourishment 3)neither of us get upset and end up crying
3. It's kinda magical really

bad thing cause

1. dangerous?
2. Will he get to used to it and want to be in bed with us rather than in his bed?
3. Will he get his calories at night rather than in the day if he's suckling for that much each night?

confusing! what do yous all think?

Hi Frekkles,

It IS good for all the good reasons you state above.

I don't think it's bad because it's dangerous (I doubt it is as long as both you and DP are not drunk!), and I don't think he's going to fill up on calories during the night, particularly, as I think he probably falls asleeep quite quickly (just slightly after you!) and therefore isn't sucking for all that time.

Personally, I would worry that he'll get so used to it (and it's so nice to sleep in bed with mummy, no?) that it will be hard to break the habit and get him to sleep on his own.

This is just my opinion and I'm sure lots of other people would say "do whatever you can to get through this no-sleep period, and if that includes co-sleeping then so be it!"... but for me I would be too worried that it would cause further problems down the line so I would do it (and have done it!) every now and then as a threat for you both, but not do it every night IYSWIM.

Pen has co-slept in exactly the same circumstances as you've said above probably 4 or 5 times, just to get me some extra sleep on particularly bad nights so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

Pen woke at 1:30 last night - I fed her and put her to bed. She then woke up chatting to herself at 5am and I switched off monitor. Then heard her crying to get up for the day at 6:50am so not too bad here! I assume she must have gone back to sleep after her 5am conflab with Mr. Elephant.

Now I just have to sort out my sex life... or lack of it...

We had wakings at 11, 1, 2, 5 and 6 I am hoping this is a mini growth spurt...

I am starting to do a bit of CC during the day now because Madam has always been difficult to get down for her daytime naps. I hope it will have an effect on her night time sleeping as well... eventually... will also keep going with feeding from both sides during the day, and try to make the night time feeds shorter. Something MUST work, no?

Frekkles, I recently fell asleep during a night feed - the first time that ever happened. It was somehow nice, but I woke up after about 20 minutes and put DD straight into her cot. For the exact reason that I don't want her to get used to this. I do have her in bed with me from about 6am for the last hour or so - mainly because at that time the risk of her waking DD1 up is too high so anything to keep her quiet! - but not during the night. But, whatever works for you!

Hi Feierabend - sorry to keep asking this but could you be a bit more precise about how the CC during the day works, as you mention starting to do this?

So sorry about your bad night. You must be shattered. I hope you have an easy day today.

Well we had lots of early wakings and then one only in the night proper, at 2.30. Not too bad but I couldn't get to sleep afterwards. And I miss that lovely long block of sleep till 4 or 5. Still - things could be so much worse (and were).

Frekkles - it really is up to you I think, for all the reasons Boobz says - glad you got some sleep though.

Ginger, sounds like things are improving for you

CC - I put her in the cot. She starts crying. I watch the clock - wait three minutes - then go and pat her or stroke her tummy and shhhh her, tell her to go to sleep. I don't do this for very long, maybe half a minute. Then leave again. She'll cry some more, I watch the clock for 3 minutes, go back and shhh her some more. Repeat until she falls asleep, making the intervals where you leave her longer and longer - 4 minutes, 5 minutes, etc. This is also exactly what we did with DD1 when bedtime was an issue. I used to sit outside her door waiting for the 3 minutes to be over. It's not very long so doesn't feel cruel, but still works. Or did for us, anyway. If you can't stand the sound of he crying, listen to your ipod. A couple of time DD1 got too upset and started full on screaming, then I'd go and pick her up briefly and calm her down, but then leave her again for a few minutes.

Seems to be working... this morning Madam cried for 5 minutes before falling asleep. At 11am she cried for 2 minutes before falling asleep. Just now she didn't cry at all. I just put her in her cot and off she went. With a big smile on her face, too.

Now for the night time sleeping...

Sounds good Feierabend - let us know how the night times go.

Penny has now realised I am happy to feed her once in the night and not to get up before 7 as it won't get her anywhere (thanks to the minimal CC we've done) and for the past 5 days or so, has gone to sleep no probs at 7, woken at about 2 for a feed, and then slept through till 7am. So we've (almost!) cracked it. Will be very happy to drop that one feed when the time comes but I don't think she is quite ready yet - maybe another couple of weeks when solids have been established.

Woopee!

Wow Boobz that's great news. Can you coach me through sleep training DD2?

So going down for daytime naps no problem any more, that was quick. Last night though, complete nightmare, she woke me hourly (although 'only' fed at 10, 1.30 and 4.15). Do you think that trying to space out her feeds and not feeding her before 11pm, then not before 3pm, might work? If she wakes before that asking for a feed, do a bit of CC? Does that sound like a reasonable plan? I have noticed that she's not very interested in milk in the daytime now because she fills up during the night. Bad bad!

I really don't know Feierabend - it depends on what you think she "needs"? I felt confident that at 5 months, and based on the facts that she has happily gone through from 7pm to 5am before now without a feed, that all those other times she was waking, she had just woken herself up for some reason, and liked to use the boob to get back to sleep. So once I "knew" that, I decided that I would put her to bed at 7, and then refuse to feed her before 1am (just a number I picked) and every time she woke after 7pm, I ssh/patted her to go back to sleep (using CC) and then the first time she woke up AFTER 1am, I would feed her (her one feed for the night) and then every time after that feed I would use ssh / pat and CC until getting up time at 7am. A few nights of this and she "worked out" that it wasn't worth waking before 1am and not worth waking up after her one feed until getting up time, as I wouldn't give her the boob to get back to sleep, IYSWIM.

And the last few nights it has worked exactly like that (the time she wakes up for her one feed has varied slightly: 1:30am, 2:25am, 2:10am etc) but then she has happily gone back to sleep and not stirred for several hours. One time she did try to get up at 6am, but was shouting, not crying, so I turned off the monitor and she woke me up properly crying at 7am.

But your DD is younger so I don't know if she still needs more that Penelope, and I don't know since, as you already have a dream feed post 7pm, whether this will work out exactly the same...

But anything is worth a go?!

Hello!

Feierabend, so sorry to hear about your rough night... you must be shattered.

We had a good night - back into the comfortable old routine, no fussing at 8 / 9 and then no feeding till 5.30! I am overjoyed, that feels like incredible luxury.

However under the influence of my visiting sister (mother of 2) I spent 90 minutes trying to use CC to get V to nap this lunchtime. It didn't work and I feel horribly guilty because she looked so happy to see me every time I went in, only to be abandoned again. She didn't sleep a wink

I suppose I am going to have to keep doing it because a. she does need that nap and b. if I don't then I have inflicted all that misery on her to no purpose.

Re the naps thing - I know this wouldn't work for everyone, but I have never put Penny down for a nap, so to speak. She has her naps in her sheepskin sleeping bag (looks so comfy - I wish I had one!) which sits on her bouncy chair on the sofa. She has generally gotten herself into her own routine where she naps at 9:30 for an hour and again at 12:30 for an hour and a half (and again at 5:00 for half an hour whilst out in the buggy walking the dog) but I don't look at my watch and see it's 9:30 and move her to her chair... I just wait to see when she's starting to look sleepy and then move her and cuddle her into her sleeping bag. Sometimes it's not till 11am that she starts to look sleepy, and this does throw feeds / second nap out, but I figure if that's when she's sleepy, then I wouldn't try and force her to sleep when I think she should.

Also, because I have never taken her upstairs to her cot for these naps, she just falls asleep to the sound of whatever's going on in the living room: the TV, the dog barking, the hoover, Radio 4, the postman knocking etc. So now when I am out during her normal nap time and she is with me, she just falls asleep wherever she is and doesn't need silence to get to sleep. Very handy indeed as it means I can go out whenever I want and still know she gets enough sleep in the day time.

Like I said, it wouldn't work for everyone, but I know of some people who won't even leave the house because it's nap time, and that means they're limited to when and where they can just get on with life.

Anyway, am glad to hear your nights are getting better ginger - am jealous you're getting through to 5:30am! Soon she'll be sleeping through and this will all be a distant memory... (until the next one - ha!)

Well Boobz I reckon asking a 4 month old baby to wait 4 hours till the next feed is not asking too much. She's done it before, in fact she recently did stretches of not feeding for 5-6 hours almost every night (although she did wake me up for other reasons in between!) so I think it can be done. I'll go for it... wish me luck...

Good luck! Stay strong - if you cave in then she'll have cried all that time for nothing...

hey there from sleep deprivation land. it's out third night of zero tolerance to little baby boys who wake up six times a night. Doing a kind of made up version of shush patting, controlled crying and singing through the crying. First night he cried for fourty mins each time, second night a few minutes each time. Third night went back to sleep with a pat. Still waking the sixtimes, and I'm still feeding him twice ( at the times he used to feed at before the last couple of weeks) but it seems to be getting better. Fingers crossed for tonight

Ah! Well done Frekkles. Things getting better here too, we have dropped the dream feed and Madam does anything from 5-7 hours before her first night feed, so last night it was 1.30 and 5am. Not too bad although I still have to take her into bed with me at 6am. But I can live with this, just. And still have high hopes for weaning!

well done fb. how old is your dd now?

still the same last night, woke six times, settled within minutes four of the times and I fed him twice, at 2am and 530am. still exhausted mind as i'm still up six times a night, but hopefully if i keep it up then it'll become a habit for him again.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

oooooh last night he only woke thrice! settled easily within seconds at 130am, fed and settled in 10 mins at 4, and the same at 545am. then up for the day at 7am. big smiles from me! i think i'll stick with this for a while and reinforce it. then see if he continues getting up at 7 (it used to be closer to 9) and if he does try and drop the 530 feed. then reassess the 4am one when he's weaning if he doesn't do it himself

a woo and a hooo. really that was only one night of him crying alot and of the four times he cried the longest was 40 mins and each time it got shorter, and he was sang to, stroked, patted and shushed the whole time, so I don't think it was cruel. just firm, for all our sakes. six times a night is too much.

Yay Frekkles! Madame didn't feed until 3am although she did need settling around 1am, so feeling happy today too. Maybe they are now coming to the end of their growth spurts / development spurts / whatever it was? Fingers crossed for us

Only just found this thread, can I join in the pain please?! (Hi Frekkles, Schulte/Feiera, Ginger and other april mummies )

Every time O has a couple of good nights (only waking to be settled once or twice and only feeding once) I think we've turned a corner, then WHAM we're back to feeding 3-4 times a night and SCREAMING if I try to settle him without feeding.

Last few nights have been truly awful and I feel like a zombie. Fingers crossed for a better night for all...

It's always worth looking at daytime sleep when night time sleep is inexplicable - they are so interlinked.

Useful article here.

well seems like last week was for nothing as we're back to several times a night scream a thons and not even going back to sleep after feeding now. spent the last 2 nights in tears. can't let him cry, but can't cope with his demands. what do i do?

hey frekkles - i feel your pain its so crap isn't it? I can't let O cry either (well, not in his cot anyway, he screams in my arms a lot these days when I'm trying to get him to sleep ) I don't have any answers as we're going through the same thing, but i can tell you what DH and I are trying to do. we've made the decision not to ever leave him to cry on his own in his cot because we just can't bear it, so...

1. we're trying to get him to go down awake in his cot for daytime naps through a version of the put down pick up thingy. every time he settles in our arms we put him down and then when he inevitably screams/cries in protest we pick him up and comfort him again. as soon as he's relaxed try and put him down, pick up as soon as cries etc. usually he screams the second we even lean forward but then after about twenty times it usually works and he goes down awake. it seems to be getting less and less effort (very small steps) but is still quite a big effort. the idea is that if he can settle himself to sleep during the day he might start doing that when he wakes in the night instead of calling for us every time he wakes up.

1. i'm not feeding him after 3am. i made this decision based on the fact that he can go that long without a milk feed and if i feed him after 3am he's never particularly interested in his morning feed. in order to settle him back to sleep without a feed at 5am (usually after he's fed at 2 or 3am) we sometimes use a dummy as its the only thing that works.

1. every time he wakes in the night after going to bed (unless its between 2 and 3am which is when i usually feed him) i try and settle him without feeding.

So I'll let you know how it goes... the night before last was typical - he woke at 9.30pm, midnight, 1am, 3am, 5am and 6.30am - but last night he only woke three times - midnight (but settled), 2am to feed and 5.30am when DH settled him.

How was the rest of your night? x x