DD10 takes hours to fall asleep - when does melatonin become an option??

[FusionChefGeoff]

DD10 is very emotional at the moment which we're attributing to hormones and it also seems to be triggering a massive sleep relapse.

As a baby she was a dream - used to point to her cot and self settle no problems.

But for the last 18 months / 2 years she's had periods of finding it very hard to get to sleep. Usually it resolves after a few weeks but this latest set back has been months now with no improvement.

We have a very carefully planned wind down routine starting at 7pm screens off, talking about our day, I read to her, she reads to herself. Sometimes we do gratitudes, sometimes she talks about worries but not much.

She can't articulate what's stopping her but repeatedly has said she doesn't want to go to sleep. Not in a stroppy way, but just in a slightly scared / anxious way - but she can't go beyond that to explain why she doesn't want to go to sleep.

I tentatively suggested talking to someone about it and she flipped out getting very agitated / tearful and telling me to "just stop talking mummy"

She's now said that she feels babyish as she has to sleep in our bed, with us, with a light on and with either lullabies, stories or meditation tracks on to fall asleep.

If she's particularly grotty (ie needs sleep!) I will stay with her and she drops off around 9/9.30.

If we've left her to it, I go to bed around 10.30 and generally she's still awake but will fall asleep once I get in with her. But we've often had 2 hours of up and down stairs so I'm getting very despondent. DH and I have no time to talk / watch something and I often have work to do (own business) that I can't even attempt in the evening now.

She's very hard to wake in the mornings so isn't getting enough sleep.

When does melatonin become an option?? Or am I overreacting and just need to wait it out some more??

Wow this has got so much more interest than I was expecting!

The situation as it stands (our bed, lights, music) is by her design not ours. As I said she used to be fine but this has been a major relapse and the above things are what she says help her to fall asleep.

I'm happy with 7pm off tablet screens, we watch TV / play with hamster / do lego so she's not going to bed at 7pm just changing activity to something calmer. We go upstairs around 8pm. Agree she's not naughty and would get more upset about not being able to sleep if I kept ignoring her and returning her to bed.

Unfortunately she gets very anxious and upset if she's awake for hours - plus it means she's not getting enough sleep she's a monster in the mornings which is why I'd like to tackle it.

The explanation about adrenaline definitely sounds believable - she can be yawning like mad / had a lovely busy, outdoorsy kind of day, but when bedtime comes she instantly fights it due to this "I don't want to go to sleep". I just wish she could explain why!!!!

If she's anxious generally and can't sleep, is there any chance that she's ND? Like a PP said, lots of people with ASD naturally don't produce enough Melatonin.

In our area it is virtually impossible to get a melatonin prescription for a child which is why people turn to the Internet. I wonder if the deleted posts had the ‘g’ word in them.

I’ve got two children on prescribed melatonin. One luckily had the prescription when we moved here from overseas. The other was facing the situation of only being able to get it once prescribed by a paediatrician, who wasn’t actually allowed to receive referrals for sleep issues and could only be referred to after a two year waiting list in any case. As are all kids in our area in need of it, mostly ND. Luckily we found a (legal) way around it but most aren’t so lucky and there are kids and parents on their knees.

All this for a medication that is sold over the counter in much of the world.

White, brown, blue or pink noise have all helped here. If he can't get to sleep then I lie with him and we do focussed deep breathing.

So only think about breathing in and out. Once he does it properly he's out like a light

They can’t unless the initial prescription comes from cahms or paediatrician then they can take over prescribing. We’ve had to have a referral to cahms for this reason but the waiting list to see them is years long, ds is diagnosed asd and always struggled with sleep but we’ve always managed with good routine and doing stuff like mentioned about. We’ve now hit puberty and issues have gone through the roof, he couldn’t get to sleep till 4am last night

I really feel for you. Our CAMHS won’t prescribe for sleep issues even once you get there. They just talk about sleep hygiene etc. They’re not supposed to refer to paeds purely for sleep issues either. But the GPs are told to refer to CAMHS and obviously a lot of ND kids are seeing CAMHS at diagnosis stage when a melatonin prescription would be hugely helpful for many.

What is the legal way round it you found, very interested as we are pretty desperate at minute but I don’t want to go down the route of buying on internet yet as we also have social services referrals in for support with ds so don’t want them to make a big issue out of it, which they no doubt would

Mine was diagnosed by paediatrician age 6 and we didn’t have sleep issues at the time. Looking back we did have sleep issues but were managing them with good sleep hygiene and also a 6 year old not going to sleep till 9 or 10 at night but lying quietly listening to audible/ lullaby music is much more manageable than a teen not getting to sleep till 2 or 4 am and becoming dysregulated. We’ve ended up having to have the police out twice and an and e once in last month

What’s the reason that it’s so hard to get here?

It’s not licenced for use by children so gp’s are not allowed to prescribe. Initial prescription can be given by a specialist and then the gp can take over prescribing but you have to get to see a specialist first and the waiting lists for cahms and paediatrics are many years long

when We saw sleep specialists one thing we were told was the long drawn out bedtime routines don’t actually help.

from personal experience I think even an hour to and hour and a half minimum is too long and makes bedtime into a big performance so risks inadvertently increasing anxiety.

Aren’t melatonin gummies also random drugs off the internet? You can’t buy them in uk as not licenced and there is no loophole of food supplement like in US.

M dd has always struggled with sleep. Only now at 21 does she sleep better and has found what really works for her.
But at age ten I sometimes used phenerghen to help her and it always worked and most times reset her sleep pattern for a few weeks

I'd put her to bed at 9 and lie with her on her bed - if she isn't asleep by 9.30 let her read in her bed for half an hour and try again.

I’m afraid it was very specific to our circumstance and we were just very lucky to have the right conversation at the right time. It still meant a wait of several months but we did manage to get there.

When in bed - lightly massage her legs up wards to encourage blood back to heart to trigger Para synthetic nervous system which needs to kick in for sleep.

My daughter was like that at that age - later diagnosed with inattentive ADHD - busy mind rather than busy body. She is on melatonin now - if you can afford it see a psychiatrist to prescribe. My daughter doesn't take it all the time just in periods when she needs to resit her clock.

You can get it by mail order too but if you want the prescription option its either a neurologist or psych that can prescribe in UK.

You need to step right back and undo the whole making a thing thing you've now done first.
Firstly you say she sleeps with you and feels babyish- does she have her own bed? If so go back to using that to start with- she cannot relax in a shared space and at 10 she'll be well aware from her peers she should be sleeping in her own bed. You start bedtime at 7- this is OK if your child is an early sleeper and early riser but try Adjusting this so around 7 there's no screen time. Change pj's etc and then upto bed around 7.30- 8pm . Don't talk to her let her read a book ,she can switch if light herself and fall asleep.once she's gotten into the routing then yes build in bedtime chats but atm your 'talks'are probably stressing her out which is not helping re sleep and just making her think about other stuff when she needs to disconnect from the day so a book is a good way to go. Also at 10 she should be reading herself.

Do you pay for the prescription privately also? How much is it?

We had something similar and totally taking the pressure off the idea of sleeping seemed to work. So I emphasis e that they not only do they not need to try to get themselves to sleep, but that trying to get make themselves sleep, or watching for the point that they're falling asleep is massively counterproductive. That the aim is to try and relax and be restful. And if they’re resting, then that's fine because that's really helping their bodies.
But it also sounds like there's something else going on here and I would try and have some conversations about it during the daytime. If she actively doesn't want to go to sleep, then without finding out why and solving that, you're always going to be a bit stuck.

Thank you so much for this post. I’ve ordered some.

I’ve known GPs to prescribe melatonin until a paediatrician appointment comes through. You can order it online too.

It’s not licenced here but it’s not illegal to buy it from overseas.

I requested it from my GP and was told it wasn't prescribed without a diagnosis of something like neurodiversity - which we did later get.

Are you sure you want to go down the medication route OP?

From what you've written I'd make the following observations:

• sounds like bedtime is too early. Most of the 10 year olds I know go to bed at around 9pm. If you go to bed either too early or too late, falling asleep can be tricky.
• based on a 9pm bedtime starting the wind down route from 7pm is too early, although I would agree with no screens after that time.
• your DD sounds like she suffers from FOMO. She's monopolising your evenings, sleeping in your bed, chatting with you, wanting you to lie with her etc. My DD (9) would happily do all of those things in which case she would be up to 11pm or midnight.

What works best for us is bedding 8:30. Lights out at 9. No late night screen time. Any chatting, wanting us to read with her, chat with her, lie with her etc has to be done by 9pm. If she comes down wanting something from us, we calmly but firmly tell her to go back to bed.

I think some children just make less melatonin. Possibly associated with ADHD type brain neurology.

My 12 year old has been on slow release melatonin since age 7. It makes a huge difference.

And we did just about everything recommended on this thread first!