DD10 takes hours to fall asleep - when does melatonin become an option??

[FusionChefGeoff]

DD10 is very emotional at the moment which we're attributing to hormones and it also seems to be triggering a massive sleep relapse.

As a baby she was a dream - used to point to her cot and self settle no problems.

But for the last 18 months / 2 years she's had periods of finding it very hard to get to sleep. Usually it resolves after a few weeks but this latest set back has been months now with no improvement.

We have a very carefully planned wind down routine starting at 7pm screens off, talking about our day, I read to her, she reads to herself. Sometimes we do gratitudes, sometimes she talks about worries but not much.

She can't articulate what's stopping her but repeatedly has said she doesn't want to go to sleep. Not in a stroppy way, but just in a slightly scared / anxious way - but she can't go beyond that to explain why she doesn't want to go to sleep.

I tentatively suggested talking to someone about it and she flipped out getting very agitated / tearful and telling me to "just stop talking mummy"

She's now said that she feels babyish as she has to sleep in our bed, with us, with a light on and with either lullabies, stories or meditation tracks on to fall asleep.

If she's particularly grotty (ie needs sleep!) I will stay with her and she drops off around 9/9.30.

If we've left her to it, I go to bed around 10.30 and generally she's still awake but will fall asleep once I get in with her. But we've often had 2 hours of up and down stairs so I'm getting very despondent. DH and I have no time to talk / watch something and I often have work to do (own business) that I can't even attempt in the evening now.

She's very hard to wake in the mornings so isn't getting enough sleep.

When does melatonin become an option?? Or am I overreacting and just need to wait it out some more??

It's really worth knowing a little bit about the biology of sleep.

If the body gets the signal for sleep, which is usually a melatonin rise triggered by light levels, and is relaxed and in a safe environment, sleep usually follows.

If for some reason sleep isn't available - melatonin levels too low, environment not right, other stimuli such as thoughts, etc - the body doesn't sleep and carries on, but gets tired.

The response to the tiredness + no sleep available combo is to release adrenaline, to keep going. Very useful if you're running away from predators in the middle of the night, but leads to the 'tired and wired' hot mess parents know all too well more often (nephew bouncing on beds at 2am etc). Once the adrenaline surge has happened, it's very difficult to go to sleep, and the body has to get back to a condition where sleep is an option again.

Also worth knowing that many neurodiverse children don't release as much melatonin as many NT children, and issues going to sleep / staying asleep are more common in this group.

I don't know why getting hold of melatonin is made so hard in the UK - obviously it shouldn't be abused, but in some cases it really is justified and makes such a huge difference not just to the child's quality of life but the whole family's.

I really feel for your DD, a lot of what you’re written resonates with me and how I was as a child. I would often take hours to fall asleep and wouldn’t sleep without a night light on.
I think from memory I was always scared of the dark, and would be scared to close my eyes, so that would obviously hinder my ability to fall asleep.
I remember that I created a rotation of the same scenarios or almost “awake dreams” to play out in my mind that would help me to eventually drift off, but it would take forever.

It got even worse after a cousin forced me to watch Michael Jackson’s Thriller video. I was only 5 or 6 and I then was terrified to go to sleep for years. I would have a full light on and would fully hide under my sheet with only a tiny hole for air. I could never tell my mum about it as I felt silly and embarrassed. I just wonder if there’s been something that’s scared your DD in a similar way.

The only thing that fixed it was my parents separating. My dad couldn’t afford to move out straight away so he slept in my room and I slept in with my mum. Having someone else with me enabled me to feel safe and I would fall asleep without any problems. But similar to your DD I only fell asleep once my mum came up to bed to start with. But over time I became more comfortable that I was safe, and eventually didn’t need a light on or someone else there to be able to sleep, although to this day I can still never fall asleep very quickly, I always have too many thoughts going round in my head.

I would suggest going back over what is causing her to not want to fall asleep. She might just feel a bit embarrassed about the reason for it. Then, as painful as it might be for now, I would lay with her to help her sleep. Preferably in her bed as that’s the room she needs to feel safe in. Melatonin would help I’m sure. Also if she’s having too many thoughts in her head, having a notepad next to her bed could help, or an actual diary. If she gets the thoughts out it could help her sleep.

Your GP will have liased with a Paediatrician for them to prescribe it like ours did. GPs are not licensed to prescribe Melatonin without written permission from a Paediatrician

Could she have some quiet time lying on her own bed, not near bedtime, where she reads a book or draws or tells herself stories? No screens or audio books or other outside stimuli. Just relaxing and letting her mind drift.

I would say,

• Don't talk about worries late in the evening

• Is the internet set so she cant see things that could be of adult themes?
• Do you look at the history and make sure she isnt on forums or youtube for example?

• Has she got a very delicate night light for her room / able to have the door open?

• Would she feel better with a walkie talkie if she needed you (with the hope she wouldnt use it, but was there ‘just in case’ for reassurance

• Weighted blanket

• One of those teddies that breath / light up.. They are very reassuring and calming (Hugglys)

Magnesium?

She's now said that she feels babyish as she has to sleep in our bed, with us, with a light on and with either lullabies, stories or meditation tracks on to fall asleep.
op you need to listen to her - I’m really sorry but she’s ten years old taking part in what is essentially a five year olds bedtime routine. Own bed, a story or her reading, small light, hug and kiss goodnight and you’re out of there. The more you leave children to it the more they’ll figure out what suits them

Bedtime stickers

I have no idea on the science but apparently they work for alot of children

-Sleepy Patches use a specially crafted formulation of essential oils to bring on sleep. Sleepy Patch is designed to help calm the nervous system, the mind and stimulate an overall relaxed sensation.

7 is far too early for wind down and is probably adding to pressure. My 10 year old can’t sleep before 9 (even if tired and waking early) so wind down would be like 8:30. Try and shift later

Hang on, why is she sleeping in your bed? I’d imagine she’s probably on edge/ holding out until you come to bed. But also a 10yr old shouldn’t be sleeping regularly in their parents’ bed

7pm for a 10yo is madness imo. And sleep isn't the goal, if you want them to actually relax.

Tell her to not worry about sleep. Lamp on in her room, lots of books, a colouring book, some easy crafts, or a radio. Let her just have an "into your room" time. She has to be in her room by (say) 8.30.

She can then choose to relax however suits her, for however long she likes with the books, colouring and crafts available to her. No sleep pressure.

@FusionChefGeoff please let us know what works.

Anyone considering buying melatonin from the US, please don’t - especially not for a child. It isn’t regulated, which means you have no idea what you are getting - recent studies have found that the dose on the label doesn’t match lab testing and is sometimes 4-5x higher than what you think. A significant proportion of tested brands were also contaminated with substances not listed on the label.

buying regulated drugs from the us I would have no problem with - the fda has a robust process, and frequently buy otc drugs when in the us that I cannot get in the uk. Substances considered nutritional supplements (such as melatonin) is a whole other world, though - it is a loophole in the system which historically has been subject to abuse.

I think you should have tried melatonin at least a year ago.

Do whatever it takes to get it. It is an excellent solution to the problem.

Useful

Either melatonin gummies or see a doctor

Do not buy random drugs off the internet

Surely parents aren't doing this??

Not sure why my post has been hidden

All i said was do not buy random drugs off the internet

I've found bathing DS at night to be extremely overstimulating for him.

Once we cut baths back a bit his sleep improved a lot.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans use it without issue. It is in fact regulated - by the Food and Drug Administration.

A 2017 study I looked at examined otc melatonin sold in Canada and explicitly stated that it might be a good idea to examine otc melatonin sold in the US, implying that there may be different manufacturers or differences between melatonin available in the two markets.
"It would be worthwhile for this study to be reproduced using OTC melatonin products sold in the United States..."
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5263069/

In any case, the least likely to have either contamination or variance from the stated dosage was tablets (as opposed to gummies, liquids, chewables, or capsules).

My post has been hidden apparently. This is par for the course on threads relating to Mel toning.

Try no screens after four. The blue light keeps the brain active.
Try going to bed earlier - 8 o'çlock.
Try a little supper of warm milk and grapes.
Classical music,not loud.
No lights in bedroom - even the clock has to have a red light.

You have lots of ideas.
If she has allergies discuss with her doctor, giving her a dose of Phenergan some nights if she is itchy etc..

But she’s not being naughty. She doesn’t want to be awake. She’s just too anxious to sleep.

Are people really buying medication off the internet and giving it to their kids? 🫤

Scary isnt it

I said the same thing and my post got hidden

It all sounds a bit prescriptive and granular somehow

In bed, quick kiss night night and that's it

Lights out

She's ten, if she lies awake for an hour that's fine??