Page 4 | What does crying it out actually mean practically?

LittleMG · 2023-01-17T21:44:12+00:00

Hi everyone, yes we’re having to cry it out. I can’t do it anymore. It’s so awful my little boy doesn’t understand why I won’t do what he wants. how long will this take? hours days? how many times a night will I have to sit here like this?? Ive done some research and I’m in the room with him I can’t just shut the door on him. But no one says practically how long he’ll be able to cry for all night?? HELP XX

Mummyof287 · 19/01/2023 13:13

GodspeedJune · 18/01/2023 01:05

The thought of leaving my little one to cry for almost an hour makes me feel ill. Please don’t do this to your son.

I second this...that really is not okay OP, having read your further post and the fact you left him crying for 50 mins...cmon you surely can't think that's okay, even if you are sleep deprived! I struggle to understand how you could bear to do so if I'm honest.

Mamoun · 19/01/2023 13:15

WhatAmIDoingWrong123 · 19/01/2023 12:28

Children in Romanian orphanages were not otherwise well cared for and well loved children. Yours is a very unintelligent comparison and best ignored.

This!

Read Emily Oster on the subject

sensechec · 19/01/2023 13:25

This idea comes, perhaps surprisingly, from 1980s Romania, where thousands of children lived in orphanages with very little human contact for months or even years. One of the things visitors noticed in these places was the eerie quiet. Babies didn’t cry, because they knew no one would come. The argument is that “cry it out” does the same thing.
This is absurd. Sleep training methods do not leave the infant for months without any human contact, nor do they suggest subjecting children to the other types of physical and emotional abuse that occurred in those orphanages.
To learn about the impact of sleep training, we need to study it in the way it is actually used. Fortunately, many people have, and in a lot of those cases they used randomized trials.
Consider an Australian studydy_ of 328 mothers whose 7-month-old babies were having problems sleeping. Approximately half were assigned to do a sleep-training regimen, and the others were not. In the short term, the authors found significant benefits: The intervention improved sleep for children and also lowered parental depression. But they didn’t stop there.*

They returned to evaluate the children a year later and five years later, when the children were 6. In this later follow-upup, which included a subset of the original families, the researchers found no difference in any outcomes, including emotional stability and conduct behavior, stress, parent-child closeness, conflict or parent-child attachment. Basically, the kids who were sleep-trained looked exactly like those who were not.*
These results are not an outlier. Review studies of sleep-training interventions do not find negative effects on infants. And many show sizable improvements in maternal depression and family functioning. Sleep affects mood, and parents who sleep less feel worse. The evidence paints a pretty pro-“cry it out” picture.
Nonetheless there are academic articles that argue against it. One small study that gets a lot of playay shows that in the few days after sleep training, mothers are less stressed, but the same is not true of infants. The researchers interpret this as a signal that the mothers and children are losing emotional touch with each other, but this is a stretch. Why not interpret the evidence to say that cry-it-out relaxes parents without hurting children?*
Fundamentally, the argument against sleep training is theoretical: that some children are devastated, even if those results don’t show up in the data, or that the damage may not manifest until babies are adults.
I think it is fair to say that it would be good to have more data. It’s always good to have more data! However, the idea that this uncertainty should lead us to avoid sleep training is flawed. Among other things, you could easily argue the opposite: Maybe sleep training is very good for some kids they really need the uninterrupted sleep and there is a risk of damaging your child by not sleep training.

www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/opinion/sunday/baby-breastfeeding-sleep-training.html

Mamoun · 19/01/2023 13:42

sensechec · 19/01/2023 13:25

This idea comes, perhaps surprisingly, from 1980s Romania, where thousands of children lived in orphanages with very little human contact for months or even years. One of the things visitors noticed in these places was the eerie quiet. Babies didn’t cry, because they knew no one would come. The argument is that “cry it out” does the same thing.
This is absurd. Sleep training methods do not leave the infant for months without any human contact, nor do they suggest subjecting children to the other types of physical and emotional abuse that occurred in those orphanages.
To learn about the impact of sleep training, we need to study it in the way it is actually used. Fortunately, many people have, and in a lot of those cases they used randomized trials.
Consider an Australian studydy_ of 328 mothers whose 7-month-old babies were having problems sleeping. Approximately half were assigned to do a sleep-training regimen, and the others were not. In the short term, the authors found significant benefits: The intervention improved sleep for children and also lowered parental depression. But they didn’t stop there.*

They returned to evaluate the children a year later and five years later, when the children were 6. In this later follow-upup, which included a subset of the original families, the researchers found no difference in any outcomes, including emotional stability and conduct behavior, stress, parent-child closeness, conflict or parent-child attachment. Basically, the kids who were sleep-trained looked exactly like those who were not.*
These results are not an outlier. Review studies of sleep-training interventions do not find negative effects on infants. And many show sizable improvements in maternal depression and family functioning. Sleep affects mood, and parents who sleep less feel worse. The evidence paints a pretty pro-“cry it out” picture.
Nonetheless there are academic articles that argue against it. One small study that gets a lot of playay shows that in the few days after sleep training, mothers are less stressed, but the same is not true of infants. The researchers interpret this as a signal that the mothers and children are losing emotional touch with each other, but this is a stretch. Why not interpret the evidence to say that cry-it-out relaxes parents without hurting children?*
Fundamentally, the argument against sleep training is theoretical: that some children are devastated, even if those results don’t show up in the data, or that the damage may not manifest until babies are adults.
I think it is fair to say that it would be good to have more data. It’s always good to have more data! However, the idea that this uncertainty should lead us to avoid sleep training is flawed. Among other things, you could easily argue the opposite: Maybe sleep training is very good for some kids they really need the uninterrupted sleep and there is a risk of damaging your child by not sleep training.

www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/opinion/sunday/baby-breastfeeding-sleep-training.html

Exactely!
I love Emily Oster!

pebbles3004 · 19/01/2023 13:53

Puppers · 19/01/2023 12:08

The fact that people who do this have to euphemistically refer to it as "sleep training" says it all really. It's just leaving your baby - who is biologically designed to crave closeness with their caregiver - until they learn that they can't depend on you to fulfill their needs and fall asleep on their own. Just awful and neglectful.

Also not sure how advocates of this method are all so confident that their baby is sleeping completely uninterrupted all night long. That would be very unusual for an infant. What these people actually mean is that their sleep is uninterrupted by crying. The baby will still be waking, they just don't cry because they know you won't come. It doesn't mean they don't still need you.

I disagree, this is not what I mean when I say my son has uninterrupted sleep. When he needs something, he will let me know. He has a habit of taking his sleeping bag off and then getting cold - he will call me to help get it back on. He sometimes wants a drink of water. He sometimes can't find his bunny in his cot. Sometimes he is teething and is in pain.

I go to him whenever he needs me. The difference is, when he wakens in between sleep cycles (like adults do too) he does NOT need me to help him get back to sleep. There is nothing he needs me for, so he doesn't call for me.

Its such a ridiculous statement (and very inaccurate) to say that he doesn't call for me cos he knows I won't come.

The big difference here is parents who either believe baby "needs" them to fall asleep or not. I don't believe mine does (evidenced by the fact that he goes to sleep happily but will call me if something is up), but others believe their kids need them to go to sleep. That's their prerogative, I don't criticise those parents, so why are those type of parents criticising me? How do you know what my son needs more than I do?

UpToMyElbowsInDiapers · 19/01/2023 14:22

WellRested · 18/01/2023 09:17

Honestly people are ridiculous, as a PP has said, keep it consistent, soothing but boring! For some gradual retreat works better (you being in room to begin with) for some not being in the room works better as you aren't a distraction. Mine got restless if I was in the room, if I left, asleep in 2 mins, no crying.

I never understand the crazy reaction to this, it's not just closing the door and leaving the baby for hours screaming, you check on them at frequent intervals so they do 'know you are coming back' but they know that when you do come back it's just for a quick bumpat and a 'its bedtime sweetie, night night' rather than a full song and dance breastfeed, self flagellation entertaining performance.

They then realise that bedtime is for sleeping not playing/eating and get bored and fall asleep, then when they wake up in the night they know it's fine to go back to sleep.

It's like dropping a kid off at childcare, people who work in childcare know that 9 times out of 10 once the parent is out of sight out of mind the child stops being upset and that long protracted goodbyes and rituals make it worse. If you applied the same insane response to childcare drop off as people do to sleep training you would just have nurseries full of parents hovering next to screaming children (and frustrated childcare workers just wishing they would all fuck off so they could get on with their day)

People act as if their kids don't cry EVER if they avoid sleep training, it's BS there is no such thing as a child that doesn't cry at some point, if they cried and tantrummed for 20 mins over a chocolate biscuit would you give in to them if you had already said no? If not then by this logic surely that's 'child abuse' too, 'I could NEVER leave my child crying without a chocolate biscuit, those poor kids in Romanian orphanages were silent as they weren't given chocolate biscuits the second they asked for one.' Give me a break.

OP you do you, would recommend properly following a set system and being boring rather than being inconsistent and making it up as you go along. They shouldn't be getting to the point where they are sick, I think your presence in the room is probably making it worse rather than better, good luck and don't let the crazies let you feel bad, thousands of parents do this and very quickly end up with well rested children, they are well rested and get quality of life back, rather than being cling-martyrs who can only make themselves feel better about their chronic sleep deprivation by shouting at people on the internet!

This all deserves repeating!

I was sleep trained in the 90s using Ferber, and I’m a well adjusted adult who has a great relationship with her parents.

I sleep trained my DCs using Ferber at 7 months, 7 months and 5 months with our GP’s blessing (indeed, encouragement) and my DCs are also thriving in school / preschool, and are very securely attached.

There is simply no need past a few months to be breastfeeding through the night (and I say this as someone still breastfeeding a 20-month-old)

sensechec · 19/01/2023 14:25

You evil women all wanting their children to have decent sleep for good brain development! Absolutely abhorrent

SalviaOfficinalis · 19/01/2023 14:37

sensechec · 19/01/2023 14:25

You evil women all wanting their children to have decent sleep for good brain development! Absolutely abhorrent

I remember when my DS was 5 months old I told the health visitor that he woke up every half an hour all night.

She said “oh, no, good quality sleep is so important…” I thought she was going to say for my sanity, but she ended the sentence with… “for the baby’s brain development”.

I nearly cried 🙈 but then I did sleep training at 6 months and all was well.

ShirleyPhallus · 19/01/2023 14:51

cheeseontoastplz · 19/01/2023 12:55

I hate these posts. Why have a baby? Baby's cry. They want your love, warmth, comfort. They need it!

Leaving a baby or child in fact to cry, is utterly neglectful in my opinion.

How would you feel if you were utterly besides yourself, to the point you THREW UP, and the one person who is meant to keep you safe is just sat there watching you. Disgusting.

Pick your god damn baby up. Co sleep. Cuddle your baby. Comfort them. They NEED it.

My 19m old doesn't sleep through. I am sleep deprived on the daily. But hearing her cry for me?? Jesus. You all must be made from stone.

I find this so odd, you’d rather your child wakes up every single night than doing something about it

the child must be exhausted

cheeseontoastplz · 19/01/2023 14:55

@ShirleyPhallus it's quite normal for baby's and toddler to wake up during the night... I can assure you my toddler is very well looked after and definitely not exhausted 😂 I am though!!

pebbles3004 · 19/01/2023 15:16

sensechec · 19/01/2023 14:25

You evil women all wanting their children to have decent sleep for good brain development! Absolutely abhorrent

🤣🤣🤣

Reading the responses of people who are against sleep training is making me want to bang my head against the wall. They clearly don't understand and refusing to actually listen to what we are saying we do during controlled crying.

To clarify - we are not leaving our children to cry for hours on end, and we do not leave them to think we are not coming back for them!!!! If you're going to criticise us for the love of God read what we are saying we are actually doing.

Hatscats · 19/01/2023 15:29

Why can’t you cuddle him? I don’t get it!

Superfoodie123 · 19/01/2023 15:44

I wouldn't be convinced by this study. It's based on questionnaires filled in by the mothers who are doing CIO. For every 1 study pro CIO there's about 10 more convincing ones showing its harmful

tattygrl · 19/01/2023 15:44

Blufelt · 18/01/2023 00:50

You need to let your child cry for long enough to realise he’s been abandoned and nobody is coming. As long as he thinks you might respond to his cries with love and attention he’ll keep crying. When he finally gets the message he’s on his own then he’ll go quiet. Romanian orphanages were renowned for being silent, the babies didn’t cry because they knew nobody would come.

Precisely. Yes they’ll stop crying when they learn in their infant way that there’s no point.

Oblomov22 · 19/01/2023 15:49

How old is he? What time is he going down at? When was his last nap? Is he tired? Teaching a child to self settle is easier if they are tired, full up, had a bath, story, cuddle/kiss and are actually ready to go to sleep. Is he?

Oblomov22 · 19/01/2023 15:52

Perhaps staying, is the problem. Why not set the scheme, bath, story, tuck him in, kiss, leave?

been and done it. · 19/01/2023 16:37

mackthepony · 18/01/2023 01:30

Don't close the door on him. Door always open no matter how exhausted you are

She doesn't she's sitting there with him but he keeps trying to get out of bed

sensechec · 19/01/2023 16:38

cheeseontoastplz · 19/01/2023 14:55

@ShirleyPhallus it's quite normal for baby's and toddler to wake up during the night... I can assure you my toddler is very well looked after and definitely not exhausted 😂 I am though!!

Yep it's normal, but not necessary.

sensechec · 19/01/2023 16:39

Superfoodie123 · 19/01/2023 15:44

I wouldn't be convinced by this study. It's based on questionnaires filled in by the mothers who are doing CIO. For every 1 study pro CIO there's about 10 more convincing ones showing its harmful

Link them.

Thinkbiglittleone · 19/01/2023 16:42

OP how old is he ??
I personally could never do controlled crying (especially not staying in a room while your child cries for you until they vomit as the OP suggests) OP your baby wants you and you are there but not allowing them to have you, I think that's cruel. At least leave the room.

OP I don't think you are understanding most of the peoples methods of controlled crying, it's not crying it out (I think it's called)
Controlled crying is allowing them to cry, you then return and "pat them" or lay them down and leave them again to cry again then you return etc so you don't give them the attention they crave but they know you come back to lay them down. I still couldn't do it to months old babies but it's a choice.

I disagree with the comparing to teaching a child about chocolate.
I believe sleep is something that happens when the child is ready, I know people who have done controlled crying for months and it still not work, the child simply wasn't ready and needed that reassurance from a parent.

I don't agree with the analogy of chocolate and affection.
I wouldn't leave my child in distress for any period of time through choice obviously if they have a sibling sometimes it's unavoidable, but it wouldn't be my choice to leave them in distress to teach them a lesson in the life skill of sleep.

Kanaloa · 19/01/2023 16:45

I think if you want him to cry it out it’s a bit pointless sitting there watching him cry for an hour until he vomits. You’d be as well downstairs chilling out and watching a film. while he cries until he’s sick. Like I don’t see how it’s different with you just sitting watching. If you are already sitting there he’d probably fall asleep quicker with you running his back/shushing him etc. To me CIO is cruel and oftentimes just doesn’t work.

Kanaloa · 19/01/2023 16:48

What I mean is - the point of crying it out is that you ignore the child crying or calling you so they eventually just stop as it gets no results. So you sitting there won’t really help. You’d be as well just shutting the door and ignoring it, sitting downstairs watching telly or doing whatever while he cries upstairs until eventually he falls asleep. Sitting in the room ignoring him is just pointless.

poopoopooinyourshoe · 19/01/2023 17:02

Expecting a baby with no concept of life without you to live without you.
Teaching them there's no point crying because no one is coming.

WhatAmIDoingWrong123 · 19/01/2023 17:02

MickeyMouseShithouse · 19/01/2023 06:25

R.e people who are trying to justify CIO by naming it ‘controlled crying’ - a crying baby is never comforted by a simple “look at me I’m here” for 5 seconds then leaving the room again. It’s ridiculous.

Stop trying to justify neglecting your childrens needs.

Very pious aren’t you. How about… you do your weird bedroom door-in-and-out conveyor belt thing and leave the OP to do something else without coming at it with the judgy ‘I’m a better mum than you’ comments.

mewkins · 19/01/2023 17:25

BestName · 19/01/2023 11:11

Just out of curiosity, as I always wonder this, if you are in there anyway, how are you saving yourself any time? Surely to just settle even if repeatedly is quicker and less stressful than sitting in a room with your child crying until they are sick your OP didn't state much details about age or what you are trying to get your LO to stop doing, frequency times etc.

I personally could never go down the cry it out route despite me desperately wanting my 16m old to just sleep better and in his own bed, so I'm always curious how being there with them crying is better than being with them happy? Long term gain I suppose.

Show quote history

Yes to long term gain. My baby is now a tall 12 year old but when I did sleep training I stayed with her as she got herself off to sleep. I quickly realised that me being there was a distraction and she got to sleep much quicker without me. Some babies though prefer someone there and then you do gradual retreat.