Sleep training - do you feel it affected your baby?

[abitfunny]

Just that really. My second son is nearly eight months old and sleep is pretty much non existent. He goes down fine (breastfed) but from the time I go to bed until morning he usually wakes hourly/every other. It is so bloody hard. We’ve fallen into the boob to sleep habit so he has no way of knowing how to self soothe.

I feel like our only option is to try some method of sleep training but am really worried that it might affect him long term. I hate the thought of them just giving up and going to sleep. But then i also hate the idea of me becoming so sleep deprived that I end up depressed.

Would love to hear of people’s experiences?

"Sleep training" is not training to sleep.

It is teaching your child that you do not attend to their needs when they need you.
They stop responding because they know no one will come.

That truth will undoubtedly piss a lot of people off.

Your baby's needs don't become any less important at night, and prioritising your mental health over your infant's is terrible.

@girlabouthome That’s only if you leave them to cry, which isn’t what sleep training means. Not going to fight about it, but it really annoys me when people equate the two.

Controlled crying - Cry it out.

The majority of "training" includes something within that spectrum.

I just want to say that I hate the way the word martyr is always slung at those who choose not to leave their babies to cry as a means of encouraging sleep. It seems it's just done to undermine and discredit different views and experiences.

I haven't sleep trained my now 2 year old who sleeps peacefully through now. I by no means feel like/see myself as/want to see myself as a martyr for responding to him at nighttime when he was younger and before his sleep developed this far (connecting sleep cycles is developmental at the end of the day. Sleep training can't impact on that - only on whether they call for you between sleep cycles). Having a different opinion of what's best for your child and their/the family's sleep doesn't equate with martyrdom.

Also, leaving a child upset when they start nursery is crushing sure - and they cry, yes. But they cry around responsive caregivers - unlike if crying alone for periods at nighttime. So, without looking to change your views on sleep training, I do want to point out that that's a very different thing. That reasoning doesn't make any sense to me.

I do appreciate that there are times when responding all if the time at night, with our busy modern lives, is unsustainable for one individual. I personally believe that babies especially young babies who don't understand much and are driven by a biological need for a feeling of safety from their caregiver, shouldn't have to shoulder all of that burden. I believe in much more flexibility for parents in the world of work etc etc - and anything else that can be done from a societal point of view that doesn't mean babies just have to suck this all up.
I noted in your post you said it's best done when they're small as they're less aware - I wonder if it works best when they're small as they're actually more helpless. I don't think that's a positive thing.

I don't want the tone of this post to sound attacking. I just want to provide an alternative point of view as a lot of this reasoning you provide is everywhere but doesn't fit with what we now know about attachment and neuroscience.

CIO sleep training has only been a thing in western cultures for the last 100 years or so. I'm not saying it's not effective - just that it's not based on babies' biological needs and nature's design for their sleep development. I wonder if there's much more middle ground than people think and effective solutions for getting more rest can simply involve much more support for parents as well as gentle nudging (without forcing them to cope i.e. leaving to cry) of your child towards more independent sleep as they naturally grow and develop and naturally connect their sleep cycles etc.

Apologies - I meant to tag @Michellexxx in my post above as it's largely in response to her post.

Yes it affected my LO hugely.

Before, she was a miserable over tired mess. After sleep training, she was like a different child - happy, content, chirpy, just so much easier thanks to the fact that she was sleeping well for 12 hours per night.

We started at 8 months using the No Cry Sleep Solution method, absolutely magic.

We did gradual retreat at 6 months and it worked brilliantly for us.

DD slept through within days and was a much brighter, happier and content baby for it.

And after getting some proper sleep, I actually started to properly enjoy motherhood.

I read something on here once which summed it up for me: if you can survive on broken sleep and still be a happy/energetic/stimulating etc., parent in the day too, that’s fabulous. But I personally couldn’t. So for us, gradual retreat was a game changer and I would have no problem sleep training the next.

@Peachypopples I accept there are nuances, which is why I think some posts abojve are unnecessary, such as “you’re ignoring your baby” or “not responding to baby’s needs” are unhelpful statements.. those are, as you said, your personal opinions.
You sound more reasoned than lots of people that usually post here about how damaging sleep training is. But I believe everyone can do as they please, and some people telling struggling mums that it’s normal to feel so awful and sleep deprived and depressed because you just attend to baby’s every whimper, is not helpful, it just causes more anxiety .
I have said that if you’re happy with your sleep pattern, then fine, but most people posting about this are struggling.
It being a western world idea is often used too, but I don’t actually see that as a negative? Our societies, especially for women, are set up very differently to others and so the response might be different.
I think it’s mainly the language used about how awful it is for you child that’s problematic because that’s mainly opinion. You could find research to support that, and I could find the opposite.

Should also add that most sleep training does not require the child to be upset for long periods..

I count 'sleep training' both my DC as one of my best parenting decisions. Better for them and for me/DH.

It is teaching your child that you do not attend to their needs when they need you.
They stop responding because they know no one will come.

That's not true...I sleep trained one of my babies. He still wakes up for a feed once or twice per night. He cries for me to go and feed him. But he no.longer cries every 1-2 hours any more. That's because he was crying for help to get back to sleep.. Which he no longer needs as he can do.it himself.

Your baby's needs don't become any less important at night, and prioritising your mental health over your infant's is terrible.

Your baby's needs at night (over 6 months) are to sleep. Some babies need to feed once or twice as well. If your baby sleeps at night and wakes up refreshed in the morning you have met their need.

connecting sleep cycles is developmental at the end of the day. Sleep training can't impact on that - only on whether they call for you between sleep cycles

Babies generally are developmentally capable of linking sleep cycles from 4 months. It's whether they realise they can that's often the problem. Modern parenting often means babies at the crucial age of 4-6 months are prevented from learning to go to sleep. Emphasis on responding to babies, not letting them sleep alone, as well as baby monitors that enable parents to spring into action as soon as the baby stirs, mean that babies are not given chance to work this out for themselves at a young age. After 6 months it's much more difficult as sleep habits are ingrained. Hence some crying required to change the habits.

Also, if you watch a sleep trained baby, you can see them stirring every 2 hours or so. They don't actually look like they are waking up. They are certainly not looking round panicking silently. And they will still cry if they are hungry, thirsty, ill, in pain etc. It's not the same as babies in orphanages that never get a response.

@SnackSizeRaisin with respect, I don't think that's scientifically accurate at all. The biological norm (what will happen without interventions like sleep training) is that babies are wake up/stir a few times a night and that this decreases as they grow older (often ceasing around 2years old but not always).

Your point that babies just don't realise they can connect sleep cycles baffles me a bit. Babies can't rationalise and think like adults do. Those parts of their brains aren't developed til years and years later. Also can you control whether you wake up from a sleep cycle from within your sleep?! Nope, pretty sure that's not humanly possible.

Interestingly, my son does what you describe (stirs but doesn't wake) sometimes and he isn't sleep trained. He hasn't always done this but I don't think that's the result of sleep training itself.

You can't teach sleep. It's a biological function. Babies sleep in the womb. All you can do is change babies biologically programmed behaviour - which is to seek closeness to you and comfort. To me, comfort is a valid need for a baby. As they get older and know and understand more of the world around them they naturally then need this comfort less.

P.s. I'm talking about comfort that they can't provide for themselves. Like I say, they can't rationalise at 6 months or even for a while after that they're safe and parent is just in the other room and it's just that it's nighttime. They just have a programmed urge for closeness to you - your smell, your heartbeat etc - it's not just newborns that are driven by this this . Science shows babies of all ages physically relax near their parent (release oxytocin, decrease heart rate etc).

Sleep training doesn't mean that they magically can provide this same comfort for themselves. It just means that they have to cope without (and let's face it, babies have no choice if they're not responded to).

Parents 100% need to be able to cope too. But often the answer is that they need more support and more help. I think any parent that chooses to sleep train should know and deserves to know what it really is and isn't. It might be a means to more rest for yourself (though it truly doesn't work for every child) by changing your baby's behaviour. It isn't teaching your child to sleep, magically making them connect sleep cycles faster than their own natural brain development - and it isn't giving them the ability to truly soothe or comfort themselves.

P.p.s. "Not letting them sleep alone" before 6 months old is a really important measure to try and reduce SIDS. I'm amazed you'd think that it's a negative thing to keep a baby close at that age (you mention 4-6 months) with the knowledge that's out there about that. @SnackSizeRaisin

It was amazing for us. He wasn't the worst sleeper ever but the waking in the night was making me sick and anxious with exhaustion. It worked so brilliantly and he really didn't cry much at all. He has such a positive association with bed, cuddling up to his bunny, and smiles when he knows it's time for sleep. To me this suggests a little boy who is happy and confident to fall asleep on his own.

@girlabouthome

"Sleep training" is not training to sleep.

It is teaching your child that you do not attend to their needs when they need you.
They stop responding because they know no one will come.

That truth will undoubtedly piss a lot of people off.

Your baby's needs don't become any less important at night, and prioritising your mental health over your infant's is terrible.

So many things wrong with your post. You clearly have idea what sleep training is. Babies are not left to cry like you suggest. If a mother’s mental health breaks down from lack of sleep, everyone suffers.

Just wanted to say that we sleep trained at 5.5 months when my DD was waking at least four times a night and needing feeding back to sleep. We did pat and shush for naps, starting with her ‘best’ nap (morning) and within a couple of days she started sleeping through the night without us doing anything different in the evenings. And yes there were some tears but I was right there beside her patting and they only lasted a couple of minutes. Like pp said, she is such a happy baby and I am such a happy mum now she sleeps well that it was 100% the right decision for us.

Our DS is 5.5 months and we’ve tried the last couple of nights but he just gets hysterical. In the night when he wakes if we leave him he just gets very awake but if we go in he just gets upset he isn’t being cuddled/fed. I’m at a loss as to what to do as from 0100 he’s still waking every two hours and will only settle if fed back to sleep.

Have you tried just staying with him with your hand on him- don’t need to pat- and shushing? Has he got a comforter?

As far as I can tell .. no negative impact on either of my kids (5yo and 7mo). It only took a matter of days with both and both thrived on the routine it enabled us to build.

If you research, you'll find there are now quite a few scientific studies that CIO or other methods do not cause long term damage. Many refer to old study which implied baby just learns it's needs won't be met and stops crying , whereas this now seems to have been largely debunked.

Should add, both kids will ask for me (or cry out in the case of 7mo) in night if they have genuine needs. Eg. Littlest cried recently when poorly, or if teething pain. However, the difference is that there is a reason - before sleep training both kids woke regularly from habit and bad sleep associations.

I have 20 months between my two. The eldest was still waking at night when the baby was born. He had sleep training because it was untenable having them both awake. He's grown into the happiest, sunniest child you could imagine. Having a second one, so quickly was a bit of a gift really, goodness knows how long we'd have gone on messing about at night. We were firmer with the baby as well, after we'd learned from having the first. Ultimately, everyone benefitted from a good night's sleep.

@Michellexxx - yep. He just gets even more upset that we’re not picking him up or just tries to grab our hand to play with it!

[quote Bunny2021]@Michellexxx - yep. He just gets even more upset that we’re not picking him up or just tries to grab our hand to play with it![/quote]
Mine was like this. Was much better not to stay in the room as he became distressed why we were there but not picking him up. Once we left he settled quickly as he realised it was sleep time.