Any one had experience of sleep training/sleepProgramme for a 10 month old?

[Olivebranch5]

My 10 month old isn't a terrible sleeper and is capable of sleeping independently for much of the time, however she never seems to sleep until she's refreshed and often wakes upset from naps. She wakes so early in the morning and I can't help wonder if it's as a result of over tiredness which has made me question doing some kind of formal sleep training programme to encourage longer naps and later mornings. I'm so tired from the early starts and the clocks changing has had the predicted outcome 🙄.
The reason I'm asking for others experience of doing it is she now gets so angry if I go into her room and don't get her up so o can imagine the process would be pretty brutal!
Would love to hear how other people have managed similar experience

How early is early? How does she get herself to sleep?

What is babys current sleep routine?

She can wake up anytime from 4, and I mean completely and utterly awake. She'll be happy enough for 20 mins or so but then gets so upset/angry if she can't get up.
She settles herself to sleep mostly but can never get more than an hour from her naps.
She generally goes to bed about 7 but to be honest she's usually ready before then as she's exhausted. We just dropped to 2 naps because we thought the third may have been causing the early wakes so she has about 45 mins in the morning around 9 if I can hold out until then and maybe an hour or so at 1.30ish. I think the gaps are too long between the sleeps but I just don't know how to lengthen the naps. Any suggestions would be great!

I think the gaps are too long between the sleeps but I just don't know how to lengthen the naps.

You're absolutely right. Rather than focusing on lengthening naps, a route out if the over-tiredness cycle is to have mire naps per day.

An over tired baby is going to really struggle to stay asleep.

I would not suggest any longer than 2h awake time while ever naps are under 1h. There is no "need" for babies to reduce number of naps per day - that is often very unhelpful to an Over tired baby.

Thank you for the reply @FATEdestiny.
You don't think that that extra nap may be contributing to the early waking or do you think it's more an over tired issue rather than having had enough?
I was constantly being told to drop the 3rd nap by people so I thought they must be right!

Early waking and short daytime naps are both caused by being over tired. So they are solved by getting your baby to have more sleep per 24h.

The idea is to break the over-tiredness cycle first, then when baby is not so sleep deprived then they'll be better able to access deeper sleep. That's when sleep quality improves so that you get better overnight sleep and longer naps.

You need a short-term fix to get out of being over tired. Once naps lengthen, then stretch awake time (and do in turn drop naps).

Thank you. I'm so desperate to get out of the cycle we're in so I'll definitely give this a go. Any advice on awake time for a 10 month old if we manage to break the overtiredness?

Never longer than 2h awake time - that includes the time it takes you to settle baby to sleep so that baby is fast asleep 2h max from last waking up.

A general approximation for a more exact awake window is that awake time is double nap length, give or take 15 minutes.

So a 45 minute morning nap for example, I would want baby back to sleep 1h15-1h45m after waking up. If baby is over tired I'd err on the side if less awake time- so more like 1h15m from waking.

Ok thank you. That doesn't seem long!

@FATEdestiny ive got a baby a similar age, surely 2 hours awake time for a 10m old is too little?

It's not to do with age Ohalrightthen, it's to do with development stage.

Many 10 month olds are having naps of 90 minutes, in which case awake windows stretch and you probably get to 3-nap days or 2-nap days.

Naps under an hour indicate a baby not linking sleep cycles so waking after one sleep cycle. So more naps per day needed until sleep cycles link. Some babies are linking sleep cycles at 2 months old. Some babies still are not at 10 months. As with all aspects of child development, it's a sliding scale of "normal".

You are right that the "average" 10 month old should be expecting to have dropped the third nap and be having 90m-3h naps twice a day. OP isn't there yet. One size doesn't fit all with regards to baby sleep.

That makes sense. Hopefully we'll get there! Thank you for your help xx

My 10mo wakes at 7am and naps from 10-11am and again from 4-4.30pm. Sleep time at 7.30pm.
This is on a good day and he does wake a lot at night, so I'm by no means an expert.
However, I can't imagine trying to convince him to do a 2 hour wake window for naps! He would laugh at me & think it was a game as he's so alert and active most of the day.
Surely even a sleep deprived 10mo would find this far too soon to sleep & you're just going to end up with a mum trying to force a nap the baby doesn't want and the baby getting frustrated?

Lisa78Lemon The widely accepted awake time windows for 2-nap days is 234 - 2h between waking in the morning and AM nap time, 3h between AM and PM naptimes, 4h awake from PM nap to bedtime.

It's give or take, some babies might work better on 224 or 244 but it gives you an idea. Given this assumes around 9h of awake time, it follows baby is ready for 2-nap days when getting around 15h sleep in 24h (in the range of 14-16).

As for difficulty getting baby to sleep - that comes down to settling method. If you don't have an effective settling method then it probably will be hard work. If you do, then encouraging more sleep is very much easier.

Thanks; thats really useful!