When cc doesnt work

[Sleeplessmamma]

Feel a bit at my wits ends. Baby has managed to learn to self settle (due to controlled crying) but still 2 weeks later we are crying at the start of naps and bedtime from 10-25 mins. Even though she is now sleeping through from 7pm till just before 7am, initially putting her down feels so stressful. She is nearly 10 months.

What other alternative do I have that isnt letting her cry but also not creating a new sleep association that we then end up back to square one (she used to be rocked to sleep).

Feeling very stressed and it's so upsetting to hear. Any advice or exoeriences would be greatly greatly appreciated right now.

Thanks in advance!

The dummy isn't the problem.

Before you went to the sleep consultant, what were you doing to get baby to go to sleep at bedtime and naptime? What were you doing to get baby back to sleep in the night?

Currently, what's her daytime feeding and sleeping schedule?

Personally I would work to a schedule each day where you have feeding and naps at particular times not random.

What's a normal day?

Before sleep consultant, to get to sleep was rocked to drowsy during the day and bedtime in her cot (one up from only being able to sleep on someone during the day and rocked to sleep at bedtime). Night wakes had to be held/rocked to deep sleep otherwise woke on putting in cot(and once cot lowered due to sitting up it was beginning to be a task in itself lowering when I'm not tall enough to bend fully over comfortably lol).

After sleep consultant,and pretty much straight away, we eliminated night wakings and albeit some crying was self settling and sleeping through. First week naps and bedtime had crying but was manageable but we also were still using dummy(crossed wires and she sidnt realise we were using it). Agter the 2and week we got rid and bedtime seemed no different but naps got quite difficult to settle.

Typical day

7am Milk
8am btealfast
9.30am nap but usually isnt asleep after crying till around 9.45/10am. Let sleep for an hour
11.am milk
12pm lunch
Between 1.30pm-2pm nap.
4.15pm bottle
5pm Dinner
6.10pm bath
6.30pm bottle and stories
6.45-7pm bed depending on how long feeding and stories.
Then crying for about 10-20 mins before pretty much sleeping till between 6am-7am.

I've tried so many different routines of naps times, how long to nap(not that i was desperate haha) and nothing made a big difference other than letting her cry a bit at night and during the day.....but now day has gone a bit down the pan

In terms of dummy use/not use - so the thing that has solved your night wake ups is the fact you stopped rocking/holding baby to sleep. What is needed is for baby to go from fully awake to fully asleep in the cot - that's what's solved the night wake ups. Dummy is not relivent at all to the wake ups.

Your sleep consultant recommended no dummy because you went for controlled crying - leaving baby alone. That doesn't work with a dummy because of the paradox of (1) Baby needs dummy to self sooth, but (2) baby too frustrated or unable to reinsert own dummy.

I would have recommended differently (my day job is as a sleep consultant, dunno is that was obvious). I'd have suggested a version of gradual withdrawal explained in my first post. But with dummy as the in-cot settling method instead of crying alone.

You were in a very good position as a dummy user to solve this without all the distress. The real problems come with babies your age who don't have a dummy because they only have the lots-of-crying method you used. You have/had options not to use the distressing methods. Because you have dummy established.

Now you have solved the main issue and baby goes to sleep where she stays asleep, the dummy will help. It will not hinder (I promise).

Your routine looks good. You don't say how long the lunchtime nap is, but assuming it's around 2h is say that's all good and I wouldn't change anything. Just keep the consistency, because consistency and routine are really important for good sleep.

Not read the whole
Thread but it took a good 6 weeks before my little one went in to cot and self settled with zero crying. It's up and down though as then they get ill, go through leaps etc

As long as I know he's fed watered and not in pain I leave him to it. If he's been crying for a few days on the trot I start at around day 4 of the ferber chart method and just pop my head around at the set intervals tor reassure him.

@FATEdestiny so adding dummy back into the mix wont necessarily hinder her no night wakings now?

I'm lucky if we got 40 mins for lunch naps. She occasionally thru this new routine did over an hour, once even an 1hr30. But its rare.

@FATEdestiny what about naps in pram? Dummy or no dummy?

I'm lucky if we got 40 mins for lunch naps

In that case I'd structure days to allow for a third nap if needed - so earlier naps.

Less than 2h daytime sleep isn't enough at this stage and being over tired in the daytime leads to an unsettled night (more likely to have night wakes and/or early morning wake up).

You don't say wake up time, but this being 100% consistent is important. 7 days a week, 365 days a year, you need baby always waking at the same time. It sets up a good nap routine.

So if baby isn't (yet) consistantly waking at the same time, you need to find the usual earliest wake time after a good night and set that as your start to the day. This means setting your own alarm 10 mins before and waking baby up at hour consistent time, rather than leaving baby to sleep in the morning. 7am milk would suggest a 6.30am wake? I'll use that but It might be that you need to set a 6am alarm (and go to bed early) if needs must.

I'd suggest:
6.30am wake baby up even if asleep

8.30am cot nap, allowing 30m settling time.
Or 9am cot nap once settling time is

what about naps in pram? Dummy or no dummy?

Dummy for all sleeps - everywhere. But get in the habit of putting away dummy when baby wakes up. Dummy is then, very specifically, an aid to sleeping and only has sleep associations.

When my youngest child (now 5) was a toddler I used to be able to say "want your dummy?" when I knew she was getting tired. She would take herself crawling up the stairs telling me she wanted a sleep (because she wanted her dummy) - No battle whatsoever.

I would not recommend anyone drops the dummy until the child drops daytime sleeping. Because as soon as the dummy is gone, naps will go to pot. So use dropping daytime naps as the flag to say it's time to drop the dummy.

@FATEdestiny ok so if we go back to dummies for purely sleep, letting her put them in..

1. Do I leave extra in cot in case she throws one out?
2. In terms of her crying, she still did cry when we had dummies. I just dont think the gradual method works for her. She is a very alert baby, and is so nosey and anytime you're with her, she gets so excited she thinks its playtime. Even when mammy is snoozing!haha

I prefer to use just one dummy on a dummy clip (Or ribbon sewn onto sleeping bag or pyjamas) rather than the scattergun 'millions of dummies' option. But whichever works for you.

Crying with the dummy in shouldn't be a thing. You're not utilising the dummy right if that's happening. Baby should be actively sucking the dummy in order for it to sooth (The sucking action is what is naturally soothing). It's impossible to cry while also actively sucking.

If the dummy is just passively in baby's mouth while baby screams, it's doing nothing. Some tops for active sucking (these are more for newborn to establish dummy, but work here too).

• if baby was sucking then stops to grumble, tap the outside of the dummy gently. This stimulates the sucking reflex even if baby is unconscious and asleep.
• if baby cries and tapping isn't getting a responce, remove dummy and start again
• dummy insert needs to be actively done as much as possible - ie baby should be seeking it's comfort rather than just being passively in the mouth hole.
• stroke baby's top lip with dummy, this triggers the natural reflex used when feeding to reach upwards for nipple
• stroke babies cheek or side of mouth with dummy, this also triggers the feeding reflex for baby to turn head towards nipple/dummy
• aim dummy upwards when in the mouth, the test hitting roof of mouth triggers that feeding/sucking reflex.

Basically it's all the tricks you use to encourage baby to take the breast. You're looking for baby to suck, then baby cannot cry. Literally cannot.

The process of getting baby to suck is the soothing part and is the bit that takes work. You have to be attentive and put time and effort in to help baby 'get it', rather than a passive here's dummy and fingers crossed for a miracle. It does get easier though.

Once the soothing is done, baby starts calming. It's natural at that point that baby's mouth/jaw muscles slacken so dummy will sit loosely in mouth not being sucked and ultimately drop out. That's normal, it's what happens. Dummy is just for the soothing section of getting to sleep and serves no purpose once asleep. So when baby starts calming and eyes dropping, you can stop encouraging active sucking, let jaw slacken and dummy drop.

Thanks that's some great advice.....when she had the dummy she would spit it out to cry, then sometimes grab and put it in. But the level of cry has gone mental since getting rid.

Think after bottle and story I will give the dummy. Think she will still spit it out and cry though. And staying in with her I just dont think is an option. She just thinks its playtime or tries to grab me through the railings while smiling.

And I've just burnt my hand on the bottle warmer water so mamma wants an easy night tonight haha

In terms of morning starts. She wakes anything between 6.15am and 7am. So we aim to get up at 6.45am to get her bottle ready so we literally go in couple mins before 7am to be feeding for 7am.

As for naps I've tried a very similar schedule for her a month or so ago, and 8.30 she was not tired at all and lucky if she would sleep that long (before fussing so much, the first week she could sleep over an hour in the morning).

And 12.30 she does just not seem tired enough. And we have only just managed to push her bedtime to 7pm as it used to be 6pm as she was so tired. Probs cos she barely slept through the day haha

@FATEdestiny can a baby after a week forget how to use a dummy? Tried the dummy at bedtime. Normally she would have sucked away. But gave it to her and it was in and taken out. In and taken out. Sucked on back to front then in again and out then chucked to the side. Tried a couple of times. Might it take a few tries for her to remember? It have we ruined dummy for her forever? I feel like option a is wrong, option b is wrong so obviously option c is the answer.....but that is also wrong.🤦🏻‍♀️

Any sleep consultant who recommends CC and dummy removal is skill-less Charlton.. not a specialist.

Your poor tot.

To be fair, she didnt recommend cc as such. She suggested waiting minimum 18 mins and then go in to either lie her down or tummy rub and wait till she fell asleep. We never got past 18 mins (except on 1st night)
The issue after dummy removal was that the daytime naps started to become haywire.

Starting to panic we've a) ruined dummies for her (surely after a week she cant have forgotten) and b) I've upset her so much 😒

Waiting 18m for a distressed child is cc though?

I'm sorry but that isn't the work of a skilled practitioner at all. Certainly not one that understands anything about attachment or early development.

I'm honestly not sure what to say. To have a child crying as you close the curtains.. you must feel so sad.

18 mins for a little baby to be alone to cry is absolutely awful. I feel so sad.

And you're not a bloody sleepless mama your baby sleeps 12 hrs straight, what exactly is the issue!!

Sleeplessmamma - sounds like sleep times have got very stressful recently. If it's been stressful for you, it will be much more so for baby who can't rationalise or understand.

So it won't be that baby has forgot the dummy, just that baby is a bit confused and doesn't really know whether she's coming or going right now.

Give it some time and some extra special attention for a while, it will be fine. Don't consider anything that happens in the next 3 weeks as permanent, it'll take that long to establish a new normal. Take your time.

@ItsSpittingEverybodyIn why don't you get off Mumsnet, go have a nice cup of tea and calm down, then? It seems like you're far too wound up to offer helpful advice, I'd take a break and have a think about what you might be projecting, I'm sure you'll feel better afterwards.

@SomeoneElseEntirelyNow

Up until 2 weeks ago I had not had more than 3-4 hours sleep a night since having her(shes nearly 10 months). Add that to a very difficult pregnancy, not more than 4-5 hours sleep a night and multiple hospital admissions due to severe morning sickness and add to that a long term health condition I've had since a child, that is why I'm a sleepless mamma.

I'm certainly not the first nor the last.

Different sleep consultants recommend different intervals to leave baby to cry. Some say 5, some say 10. Some say 20. As I said, apart from the first night, we never got to the 18 mins. Sometimes it takes different outlooks and tweaks to help a baby to improve their sleep.

I didnt come on to justify, more to ask if anyone had any ideas how to help.

@FATEdestiny I'd like to add a thank you for all your advice and help over today xx

@SomeoneElseEntirelyNow sorry my last post wasnt directed at you 🤦🏻‍♀️

Was meant for @ItsSpittingEverybodyIn