Terrible Guilt - Sleep training

[DoveGreylove]

The title says it all really. I have a 6 month old who has never been able to self soothe and never nap in her cot. Her nights are bad too, waking 4-5 times. I have always had to rock her or feed her or walk her to sleep. I have realised I just can't do this anymore. I am on my last legs. I am slipping into PND. I am so exhausted. I cry all the time. I don't socialise anymore as I feel I can't because she won't sleep anywhere.

I have resorted to sleep training. "gentle" sleep training. You put them in their cot awake and stay in the room with them, able to shush them or say key phrases to them and picking up is the last resort.

I just watched her (well more like listened) to her cry for one whole hour. One whole hour I let her cry. I picked her up 3 times. I put my hand on her, I shushed her.

I cried.

She fell asleep after about an hour or so.

Then woke up after 5mins.

Please. Can anyone explain how this is going to help her??? I have so many friends tell me this is the only way she will learn to go to sleep. She will then sleep better at night. I know I am depressed and I cry most days due to her lack of sleep but this isn't helping me either.

Just wanted to vent really... I'd love some support or advice. I feel like having a baby is the worst decision I have ever made, a terrible mistake. Which makes me so sad as it's all I ever wanted.

Sleep training is massively divisive. For me, I think it's important that I teach my DC to sleep.

It took me a while to realise that my DD couldn't go to sleep in her cot with me in the room; my presence didn't help once her feed was finished. I did sleep training at around 5m, leaving her for 2 minutes then going back to comfort her then repeat. If she was ever thoroughly distressed I didn't persist but she just seemed to need a grumble and then would be asleep in 5-10 minutes and sleep very well after that, waking once or twice a night for a feed.

At various points we've had to sleep train again, with a few days of being a bit tough at bedtime. 95% of the time over the past 2 years DD has gone to bed absolutely fine and slept well.

I think that learning to self settle and to sleep well at night is an extremely important life skill and one that carries through into adulthood.

There is no way my 2 year old would cope well with her busy days if she was still waking multiple times a night. She needs her 12 hours solid sleep at night now that she's not napping.

@INeedNewShoes One thing that's wrong there,
You cannot reach someone how to sleep or how to self soothe. It is a developmental milestone. The same as wetting a bed.
Leaving a child to cry to "train them to sleep" is the same as leaving a child in soaking wet urine to "train them not to wet the bed" imo.

Self settling can't be taught the child just gives up on the end as they know no one is coming.

I haven't seen anyone saying about just leaving a 6 month old to cry it out.

The methods being talked about here are to keep returning every couple of minutes or so. So to say the child 'gives up because they know no one is coming' doesn't seem to quite apply here.

@PatricksRum you seem to be very intent that gentle sleep training is cruel.

Each to their own.

A 2 year old waking up ten times at night - I can't see how this is good for the child. How can they possibly be getting enough sleep?

We'll have to agree to disagree.

@INeedNewShoes How can my nearly two year old be getting enough sleep?
Because they root around for my breast, then dream feed and off to sleep they go.
The same way I wake up to check the time etc during my sleep, I simply nod off back to sleep.

Sleep training in a whole is wrong imo. Regardless of that, my simple point is waking frequently is biologically normal and if we all had better expectations we wouldn't be so "lost" to find our children following normal expectations.

^Waiting for your baby to Sleep Through The Night (STTN)?
Stop it.
Stop waiting.
It’s not even a thing.
Stop thinking that this is some milestone in your child’s life and development.
It’s not.
Humans are not designed to sleep through the night.
And I stress the word HUMANS.
Not baby, not toddler, not pre-schooler, not school-age, teen, adult, nor elder ...
None of us, at any age is designed nor expected to sleep a full night 100% uninterrupted even if those disruptions can be so minor we barely register them.

We ALL wake through the night.

Sometimes, in order to return to sleep, we must take action- go to the toilet, have a sip of water, take a blanket off, pull up another blanket, flip our pillow over, write a quick note so we don’t forget a midnight musing, and more ...
Other times, we roll over, fluff our pillow and we are back out without fully waking.
It is normal to wake at night and return to sleep.
Normal.
Sleeping through the night is not a requirement for achieving healthy sleep.

Our young babies and children are also developing and growing at a phenomenal rate and their sleep patterns and needs at night are amplified compared to our adult matured needs. And yet, their ability to meet the requirements they need to fall back to sleep are often out of their reach unless they have the assistance of a loved one.
Their needs for night time nourishment, comfort and contact are also protective against SIDS.
For all of the obsession in making babies sleep for longer and more deeply, we actually increase the risk of them succumbing to SIDS.
Babies are MEANT to rouse frequently.
They are not meant to sleep too deeply for too long.
Waking is protective.
We can place a positive lens over waking if we choose.
We can switch our focus from trying to stop something that is deeply human to working out to manage the normal nighttime needs of our little ones while also meeting our own.
Sleeping Through The Night?
Bogus myth.
Stop waiting for the day and live for today.
They are only this little and need you this intensely for such a short time, don’t waste a moment on wishing their smallness away.
📝 - Carly Grubb, TBSTP Founder^

A quote I've just come across a well:

It doesn’t teach babies how to sleep, it teaches them how to be quiet, how to disconnect, how to turn to things rather than people when they need help.

This doesn't just apply to sleeping either.

PatricksRum We appreciate you dont wish to sleep train but I have to say you have a very skewed outlook. Sleep isnt linear as im sure you will agree, neither is sleep training. No one on this thread is supporting leaving a tiny baby to cry alone for hours at a time. Babies also teeth, get sick, every night time is different- and we tend to our babies accordingly (as we know them best) -equally some kids can wake just from habit.

My 2.5yr old has epilepsy, a good nights sleep is imperative. Come 7.30pm I say "bedtime", she goes up stairs does her teeth, lies down in her bed and says night mummy with a smile. She is not traumatised or scared to call me- indeed some nights she calls me several times and I respond.
Please stop the judgement

Co-sleeping at night might work.
She's six months, does she sit on the floor playing with toys during the day at all?

Sounds as though things are improving a bit so good luck, you're doing all you can.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers Who's "we"?
Like I've said more than thrice now, regardless of my opinion on sleep training it is biologically normal for an infant to wake frequently during the night. 5 wakes at 6 months is nothing
If we change our attitudes towards normal sleep we won't be coming on forums and questioning why our infants are sleeping normally.

I agree with @PatricksRum. And I think if you don’t want judgment, you possibly shouldn’t be on a public forum discussing this. It’s hugely divisive so of course people are going to give their honest opinions either way

Also the idea that self settling is a life skill for babies that is carried on into adulthood is nonsense and not based on anything in science. Of course adults can self settle... so can children once their brains reach the developmental milestone to do it. You just need to give them chance

My now DS4 was a terrible sleeper. He just wouldn't sleep by himself. We seemed to go through phases where he was getting the hang of it and then we were back at square one again. I remember reading "The Wonder Weeks" and it really helped me gain a grip on my sanity and not feel like such a failure. Short version is they go through developmental leaps every few weeks (like learning a new skill) and this disrupts their sleep. The book was very accurate and it really helped me get through these awful patches.

To manage it I used controlled crying as it gave me a sense of control over the situation but minimised the guilt of the crying. I'd lay him down drowsy and keep my hand on him and read a short nursery rhyme. Then take my hand off but stay next to the cot. If he cried I'd let him cry for 2 mins then put my hand back, at which point he's usually settle again (if he didn't I knew he was poorly or something genuine was bothering him). Take my hand away again but for 4 mins then put back of he was still crying. Once he was calm again repeat but if he cried leave for 8 mins. If after waiting 8 mins he was still crying I'd pick him up, move to another room but still darkened with no stimulation (no TV or noise) soothe him for a while and start again. I rarely ever got to the 8 mins where I'd need to pick him up. I just found it much easier than listening to him cry or having to rock/hold him to sleep

The fact you don't think it's normal means you haven't researched it

For debate sake - this is my point though. I Have researched sleep. Ive researched everything when it comes to parenting as I feel like im doing a pretty shit job of it most of the time. And when I read about sleep all the books and websites say that from 6 months "your baby will be / could be / should be sleeping through the night". Or "breast fed babies may need 1 or 2 feeds a night". Most literature that I happen to have read has made me feel like I am doing something wrong and my baby should not be waking every 2 hours after midnight. It means she can't link her sleep cycles and I need to teach her to do it otherwise she will continue to wake every 2 hours...

Plus for me personally (and the point of this thread) was to vent my exhaustion, worry and sadness that my little baby has never wanted to sleep since she was a newborn and despite what everyone has said she STILL ISN"T GETTING ANY EASIER!!!

"this too shall pass"? It still hasn't passed guys. I cry most days. I haven't showered for 2 days in a row. And there are some mums going out for coffees every day, shopping, baby classes. I can't even shower still.

Something isn't right here!

OP dont put yourself through this, try a bottle of formula, try gentle sleep training....

If you have a couple of hundred pound spare get a sleep consultant it revolutionised our sleep situation. Sleep.time.baby on Instagram or Facebook is who we used. I wish I had done it much sooner!

A bottle of formula made sod all difference in my case.

So sorry you are going through this. I have been there with the sleep and the PND and it was awful. I did controlled crying in the end it took a lot of time to work but did eventually. We still had some bad nights don't get me wrong and even now when she's 21 months she still refuses a lot of the time to sleep but now she will cry for around 2 mins and then give in and go to sleep. Some nights she's amazing and sings herself a song and is off to sleep so it's still very up and down.
But she will sleep through the night now (she did this from 15 months when I stopped breastfeeding) and it means I have an evening and mostly a full night sleep and my mental health is a lot better for it.
Keep going with it as tough as it is to hear your baby cry it will be worse for her to have a depressed mummy.

formula might not work, controlled crying might not work, but no judgement from me OP for you wishing to try,

And there are some mums going out for coffees every day, shopping, baby classes. I can't even shower still.

OP I really feel for you. I had the exact same. The first 9ish months were awful for me. I genuinely looked forward to going back to work just to get a break! Mine was a clingy, whiney little guy so much that I couldn't even brush my teeth some days. I know it's no consolation right now, but some of us get dealt this kind of kid. There's nothing wrong with them or us, it's just how they are. My mum told me my younger brother was like this, and if he'd been born first he would have stayed an only child! Honestly when I was going through this I decided I wasn't haven't anymore kids. It pushed me to the point I needed to see the GP for depression. Taking that step really helped me, I got the support I needed mentally and it made my hubby step up a bit more.

Do what you can to make yourself feel better or more in control. If that's formula, sleep training, co sleeping just do it. Whatever makes it easier for you and the baby. As long as you are both happy and healthy that's all that matters. Forget all the opinions on here, do what is right for you and your family.

Ps, my DS4 still wakes up in the night, he's perfectly capable of settling himself but we all prefer having a cuddle in the big bed so he gets in with us instead. We all wake up happy and rested and that's all that matters, I really couldn't give a flying fuck if anyone on here thinks that 4yo is too old for cosleeping.

It depends how committed you are to solving the problem OP. You COULD solve it in 3 days by stopping feeding at night completely and leaving baby to cry. Or popping in to offer water then popping out. It's probably how most of us learned to sleep and I really can't see there being any psychological harm. Up the food during the day. If necessary, stop breastfeeding so you know exactly how much he's eating.
Sometimes the old fashioned ways are best!

at the anti sleep training people

Why is it less upsetting for a baby to wake and cry many times a night for months or years versus longer bouts of crying for a couple of nights in sleep training? They just need to learn that they can go to sleep without milk.

It always seems to me that it's self indulgent to make your child go on having poor sleep for an extended period because you half-read some crap about attachment parenting.

It's not like you're leaving them in a Romanian orphanage. Sleep training might not be for every one but it's right for some.

OP it's luck as to how well your baby sleeps and personal preference as to how much you nudge them along. Just do what's right for you.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I do understand sleep training isn't for everyone and totally get the concerns people have with it. I think when you are in a sleep deprived state, going in and out of depression, feeling like there is no hope some days ... you see it differently to people who have babies who are a lot easier (and therefore they feel the training isn't necessary / somewhat harsh).

Any training I have been doing is gentle. I did stress that in my original post. And it has been working somewhat. What I have to do now is get the baby to sleep longer than 20 mins in the cot for naps and to stop wanting milk up to 4/5 times a night (which I still believe is NOT normal despite what some may think and this definitely needs to stop soon when I have the energy to do it).

I really don't want a second child, I find that really really sad. I wish I was dealt an easier baby. I love her but I don't enjoy being a mum at all. I find it so mundane, stressful and basically very unenjoyable. I don't understand what it feels like to wake up and enjoy life anymore. I am just surviving. I really hope it gets better as I miss my old life so much I cry about it often.

What I have to do now is get the baby to sleep longer than 20 mins in the cot for naps and to stop wanting milk up to 4/5 times a night (which I still believe is NOT normal despite what some may think and this definitely needs to stop soon when I have the energy to do it).

I hear you - I swear you could have version 2 of my child! He used to have night feeds purely out of habit. I may have missed it somewhere so I'm not sure if you're bottle or breast feeding. If bottle feeding (breast or formula) you could gradually break the habit by reducing the amount in the bottle by 20 or 30ml each night. It does take a while and needs perseverance but over the course of a month we managed to drop two feeds this way - we added some extra to the last night feed and first morning feed to supplement. Baby was perfectly healthy, gaining weight and reaching all milestones so was no worse for it. He got all the milk he needed over the course of the day we just had to recondition him about when to have it. We didn't introduce solids until about 7 months if I recall (our first attempt at 6 months caused huge issues and made everything worse so we delayed it). I promise you it does get better eventually. I didn't really start enjoying being a mum until he was about a year old. Up until then I was just surviving and doing whatever it took to get through the day.

Hi op - more solidarity here. My 2.5 year old was much like you describe at 6mo. I don't know if you've tried this or have read it before but some really useful night weaning advice for bf babies:
When your baby wakes, try to settle without feeding for 10 minutes. If after 10 minutes they are still awake, feed. If they go back to sleep BUT wake up in less than an hour, feed. However you will hopefully find that they doze off within a few minutes for some of the feeds. The idea behind this is to figure out which feeds are genuinely for hunger and which are habit. I managed to cut down from 5 night feeds to 2 using this method but it's not a quick fix - it does take some time to implement. Once we'd cut down the night feeds, sleep cycles started linking and longer stretches happened.
Hope it all improves soon!