HELP! 9yo daughter won’t sleep and I’m losing my sanity

[Gyh2429]

It’s been going on for around 4 months now and I’m on the verge of a breakdown. Everything in life is piling up before my eyes. We go upstairs with her at 6.30/7ish, she has a routine where she baths, reads a book and is in bed with book down at 8. She is still up and down the stairs at 10pm sometimes later. We have tried everything that we know of and nothing helps. It is taking over our lives. We are in desperate need of some advice. We also have a 6yo son who on occasions has been kept awake by all the noise. Would really appreciate even the tiniest amount of support. I feel like I’m failing massively as a parent and have no idea where to turn. When we ask her why she can’t sleep she just says she’s never tired

My dd is 9 and she’s only just gone up to bed. But, this is her norm, she just doesn’t sleep. She has an alarm clock for the mornings. The only time she goes to bed early or has a nap is when she’s unwell.

9yo is old enough to understand that you stay in your room or you’ll be disciplined. You can’t make her sleep but you can make her stay in her room.

At the age of 9 mine were in bed by 9pm-9.30pm, dinner was around 6pm, they watched tv or played until quick shower around 8.15pm, when they went to bed that was them until morning, i think bed time should be a bit later, you have to be a bit strict and tell her when in bed she stay's in bed. Good luck

If she's not waking up naturally or easily in the morning then she must be tired.
If I were you I'd make sure she has an hour or so downstairs with you after her brother goes to bed. Then send her up.
She's old enough to understand that she needs to stay in her room.
My almost 9 year old goes to bed and lights off at 8, and wakes up at 7. So she gets about 11 hours which is the amount she should be getting at that age.

My DS is 8 and is rarely asleep before 9, awake at 6.30. We gave up on trying to get him to sleep by 8. We leave him to read but say we'll come back up and turn light off in 10 mins or whatever. He doesn't like the dark so I think he's decided to sleep before we turn it off. Don't stress about it - your anxiety will be adding to her insomnia.

It's really good to have a routine OP.

My eldest at 9 was probably settling by midnight, she was a nightmare. She can survive on such little sleep. Our youngest was asleep by 8pm all the way through primary school and was beyond exhausted when she started secondary so probably kept that pattern for a few years more! Even as an adult she needs at least 9 hours sleep to be human next day.

We soon learned to let them find their own natural sleep pattern.

I’m someone who takes ages to settle at night, was from a young age. I remember my Mum being very strict, bedtime was 7.30 until I started senior school! I used to read under the covers

DD (6yo) is a similar type. Bedtimes have been hard work. What’s helped her/us is a sunrise/sunset clock - it gradually gets lighter over 30 minutes stimulating natural waking. It also does up to 60 minutes getting darker. We tell DD she can chill in her room at bedtime (we usually do 30m), reading, playing (she only really has soft toys in her room as she has a playroom downstairs) as the light dons and when it’s out we go up and tuck her in and then it’s time to sleep. It really has helped.

My ds just reads until he wants to go to sleep (as did I when I was a kid) - no up and down the stairs and a love of reading - win-win

I wouldn't worry about making her sleep but would have a rule where she has to stay quietly in her room, in her bed after your chosen tome (8pm?) maybe with a dim light on so she can read etc.

I think you need to stop babying her she will be in secondary soon enough and she is acting like a toddler and you are up and down to her. A 9 year old needs to have some responsibility for themselves send her up atfter the 6 year old you don't have to go up when she is in her room if she comes down just send her back or ignore her she might be used to the routine of attention.

What about using a reward chart/pocket money to encourage her to stay in her room once you say it's time for bed (even if she is reading or playing in her room for a little while before dropping off?

Can she listen to (not watch)something in her room till she falls asleep 6 pm is far to early to be going up to bed have your dinner while she is up she might appreciate time with you away from her sibling

I’m sorry but I asked why on Earth you would send her to bed so early as it just doesn’t make sense. She’s 9! Why can you not get stuff done if she is still,up?

When DS was that age he came home from school and did homework and watched some tv or played in the garden while I got his dinner sorted. He ate and then had a bath and got ready for bed. He then came back downstairs while I did dinner for DH and I. DH was normally home around 7 so we all chatted a bit while I cooked. Then DS watched a bit more tv while DH and I had dinner. DH cleared up and I took DS up to bed around 8.30.

Once the get older than 6 or 7 you would generally expect to have them around longer in the evenings surely?

And if you have a younger one she goes to be first while eldest watches tv or whatever.

If your working full time (I think you said this?) maybe she sees the evenings as her chance to spend some time with you without her sibling. Any attention, even negative, is better than no attention etc. How about sending her to bed at 8.30 / 9pm but spend some really positive one on one time with her in the evening. Lots of praise for staying in her room.

Does she want with you? I think she probably wants to spend time with you.
The thing about them growing up is you get less adult alone time.

• eat with you!

I'd put her routine back later too. Once your younger son has had a bath, eat dinner with her, spend half an hour giving her your full attention - chatting or reading or playing together. Then let her have a bath by herself and get changed for bed. Have a goodnight cuddle for 10 mins or so then tell her you are tired and must have adult time now. She can stay awake but she must be quiet and let you have some time.

I used to say to DS2 that he wouldn't like it if he had a friend over and I interrupted every two minutes demanding he did something with me instead. She has a right to play time and so do you. Yours is after children's bedtime.

I was also very honest with DS2 and said: if I am tired I get really grumpy and shouty. If you want a nice mummy not a shouty one you must allow me to relax at night. At 9, they are old enough to understand this.

My DD was like this from the age of 4, and it got worse in her teens. Now in her late teens she been diagnosed with delayed sleep/wake phase disorder. The sleep clinic are keen to treat it as it is associated with low mood and other problems. In your situation I would make sure you are hot on sleep hygiene and let her fall asleep when she is tired to get a feel for her actual sleep/wake cycle, and then make a GP appointment.

DD's terrible sleep caused me so much stress until I decided I was not going to fight her on it, and just relaxed a bit more in the evenings. I do wish we had pursued the sleep clinic option earlier, though.

Is she worried about anything? There is quite a good book called 'What you do when you dread your bed' which has some helpful techniques.

For coming down from bed you could try some bedtime passes (dd can make them out of card). Whenever she comes down she has to use one of her passes. When they are all gone she has to stay in bed. Start with 3/4 then reduce how many she has each week. That way she knows she can come down if she really needs to but may avoid using up a pass for something v minor.

My dc are almost 10 and have lights off by 8:30 but they are awake at 6:15 and in school doing things before 8am.
Ds has enough light to read by if needed, he takes longer to get to sleep.
A later bedtime, making sure there is no screen an hour before bed helps as does making sure dc have eaten and exercised enough.

Let her stay up later on the proviso that she then stays in her room. My kids, one much younger than yours is often still awake at ten but knows not to come down after 8.
You need some consequences for if she keeps coming down and be really consistent.

Mine are upstairs 30 mins before lights out- but wind down activities up to an hour before- something soothing on the tv / colouring / drawing etc. Then up by themselves for bath / teeth / book and bed.

12 year old is lights off by 10, 9 year old lights off at 8.15, and 6 year old lights off at 7.30.

The 9 year old still needs a good whack of sleep- any later and they are ratty and hard to reason with.

Can you ban her from coming downstairs? If she is awake, fine, but she has to stay in her room. No screens, but audible stories, books, colouring, quiet play. She may be living for the drama of coming downstairs and getting you all het up. But its very important that she doesnt have a phone, tv, computer, ipad etc in her bedroom

Maybe start getting her up a bit earlier so that she is tired? I struggle with my dd and I’ve found now that if I let her have a half hour wind down before I come in and settle her then she drops off quicker. I still sit with her for 10 mins until she is asleep. And I’ve gradually started shifting bedtime to be a bit earlier and wake up a bit earlier. She is now doing 9.30-7.30 and I’m aiming for 9-7 next week. She’s a natural night owl (like me!)

Sympathy here- my 9 year old has always been a poor sleeper- since moving house its been so poor. He goes to bed between 8-8.30 and is always up at 6. We end up sitting with him while he goes to sleep which I don't recommend.
For your DD - if she is not tired the next day - I wouldn't push the lights out time but she shouldn't be allowed to wander round but needs to stay in her room- why does she come down? is it fear of missing out?