4yo and 2yo sleep hell

[MummySharkDooDooDooDoo]

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can attempt to get my children to sleep better?

Both have never been great sleepers. DD1 (4yo) used to have a brilliant bedtime routine. DD2 (2yo) had a good routine for a while and they would both be in bed for 7, asleep by 8 most nights. This was when DD2 was 6 months old. Since then, me and my XH split up, me and the DCs moved in with my parents for a while and then in to our own place at the beginning of this year. They share a bedroom and doing bedtime on my own is near impossible.

DD2 is still breastfed, despite me trying to stop. She will now take a bottle for me and she only breastfeeds for comfort. When she's with anyone else she will go to sleep without milk and will sleep through the night. For me, she wakes twice on average each night, she'll come in to my bed and I let her as I don't want her to wake DD1. Some nights she can be up for hours - saying she's hungry, having milk (bottle and breast), chatting etc.

DD1 won't settle to sleep on her own. She was badly affected by the break up and she needs to be cuddled in bed to go to sleep. Since starting school she's overtired and bedtime is protest after protest - she's not tired, she's too hot, she wants water, sometimes she'll tantrum. She will wake up at some point in the night - usually 4am onwards and come in to my bed.

I wake up most mornings with them both in my bed with me.

I know that a lot of this is my own doing and I probably should have been stricter earlier, but there was so much upheaval and they needed comfort following the separation so I did what I had to do to get through it.

The night time wakings seem to be getting worse, not better, and I know that's likely due to DD1 starting reception and it's been a change of routine for us all. But I just don't know what to do. Partly, because they share the same bedroom, I have to do what I can to minimise disruption to the other one - I couldn't let DD2 CIO for example (I'm not sure if I'd want to anyway) as it would disrupt DD1 who needs to get to sleep for school the next day.

I'm at a loss. It feels like I've tried everything. I'm exhausted from all the night time waking and the early starts, DD1 is exhausted and DD2 seems to be some unnatural creature who can survive on minimal amount of sleep.

Help!!!

Bump to beg for help before tonight's bedtime!

totally not for everyone but how would you feel about co sleeping ? getting them to sleep then popping off downstairs for a bit and then back to bed so you aren't up and down to them so many times ?

They already co-sleep for much of the night. DD2 from earlier than DD1. They're not so bad during the evening, it's during the night that DD2 is up a lot. She was up for a 2 hours stint last night and then she stated the day at 3am. I think that was the most ridiculous night I've ever had.

I just don't know what to do.

No great words of wisdom for you OP but sending hugs (and )!

It sounds like your DDs have gone through a big upheaval and perhaps just want the reassurance of being near you? Would it help if they helped redecorate/ refurnish/ put their own touches on their room (depending on your budget) and maybe a nightlight too? If they realised it was now their permanent home they might be more settled.

Failing that could you get blow up mattresses or ready beds and put them on your bedroom floor? That way they could be with you but hopefully not disturbing your sleep too much.

A 3am start to the day would make me lose the will to live!! DTS1 went through an awful phase of being awake say 3am - 5am and then crashing and burning not long before DTS2 would be up for the day at 6.30am I know it's not ideal but would watching something like In The Night Garden quietly on a tablet next to you send your DD back to sleep?

And finally... could your DDs stay over with GPs/ XH once a week or so, then you have at least one good night's sleep to look forward to?!

Good luck

Thanks Ruby.

The really frustrating thing is they sleep so well for their Dad and my parents. I'm very fortunate as my parents have them overnight one night a week so I do get to sleep through then.

I've been spending a bit of time trying to get their bedroom a bit cosier for them - some fairy lights around DD1s bed, a new mattress for DD2 and they have a projector light with stars.

My bedroom is pretty small as I put them in the master bedroom as there are two of them, plus they have space to play etc, whereas my bedroom is just to sleep and for clothes storage. But that means there's no space for airbeds in there. I could try setting up an air bed in their room though and see how that goes.

I'm trying to be a bit stricter with bedtime routine too - I've actually changed it so I'm going to be consistent with that in the hope that overtime it will have a positive association and help them sleep better.

Fingers crossed for a good night tonight!

Oh, just to add that in the middle of the night DD2 will ask to watch Baby Shark or Peppa Pig and, although it's far from ideal, I do sometimes give in and let her watch it on my phone to avoid the screaming fit which threatens to wake DD1. She doesn't fall asleep watching it though. I really don't understand how she's surviving on such little sleep.

Honestly? I think you need to get stricter. You’re actually not doing them any favours because they’re sleep deprived. They need a proper night’s sleep. Short term gain for long term gain.

You know they can do it. They do it at their dads and grandparents’ houses. They just don’t do it with you because you let them get away with it. I can’t believe you let her watch peppa pig!

Short term pain for long term gain

I know. The hard part is that it's just me. When they're with my parents there are two of them, so my parents can see to one each. And when they're with their Dad, they stay at his sister's house so there's another person on hand to help. Plus they have a room each there, whereas at home they have to share a room.

I know I've been too soft. But I find it really difficult to be too hard on them when they've had to deal with such upheaval. Ultimately I think they're just craving comfort and reassurance from their Mum and I find it hard to deny them that.

As for watching Peppa Pig, yeah that's crappy parenting on my part. But I balance it with if not her crying would wake her sister up and she's just started in reception and really needs her sleep. I'm just doing what I can to get by and minimise disruption where possible. It's not ideal but nothing about them being in a single parent family is ideal.

Mine actually sleep ok in the night now, it's getting them to actually go to sleep that's the hard bit!! They have just turned 3 and are either not tired enough or massively overtired and won't calm down, depending on whether they've had a nap. They have plenty of physical exercise so that's not it - it's getting them to switch off that's the issue, but from what I've been reading that's not unusual with toddlers.

They did have a nightlight with stars but trashed it trying to see how it worked

They do sleep a lot better when I'm in the room with them, which I've had to do a few times. No idea how they know but it does make a difference! I know an air bed isn't great but if it helps in the short term.....

I've ordered a few books from the library to encourage their bedtime routine, and am considering the Lumia bedbug, but I'd have to buy two and they are soooo expensive! And Spotify do lullaby playlists, which I didn't realise. Plus it's time to take the bars off their cots and give them toddler beds instead; I've resisted doing it as they thrash around a lot but really they are too big for cots now.

NameChange30 - I think the OP is very sleep deprived and doing whatever she can to get by - it's very hard to look at these things objectively when you are stuck in the middle and tired out!

I tried something with DD1 tonight while I was (attempting to) get DD2 to sleep. I told her I had a challenge for her, that I wanted her to keep her eyes open the whole time I was getting her sister to sleep. My plan worked and she fell asleep on her own pretty quickly!

I know that I pander to them, I really do. But they're so little and I'm their one safe place. They've already been effectively abandoned by one parent, I can't let them think that I'm not there for them as well by being less available at bedtime or during the night when they're more vulnerable. Maybe that makes me weak. But I just can't do it. They're both ex prems and they've been through so much, health wise as well as the separation. I just want them to be happy. Of course I'd like some sleep too! But their happiness comes first.

Ah, very cunning Mummy ;-)

I think that's completely understandable and as you say, they are very little still. That's what I tell myself when I'm going a bit mad trying to be patient - will they still be doing this in 10 years? Of course not.

This is what I was looking at earlier, in case it helps: www.thesleepstore.co.nz/sleep-information/toddlers/sleep-articles/my-toddler-won-t-settle-at-bedtime

I know a mum at preschool who's recently separated from her DP, and one of her DCs sleeps with her every night, he refuses to go to bed at all in his own bed and wants to sleep with mummy. Much as it's inconvenient, she's going with it for now as she knows his little world has been rocked by everything that's gone on. At the end of the day we're all just trying to do the best for our little ones

Aw I get it OP
I have been there with sleep deprivation and not wanting to be strict with DS and I know how hard it is to see it when you’re living it.
But I honestly think you will be helping them by getting stricter, it won’t feel like it to begin with, but they need boundaries and routines, and they need sleep. I’m sure you can do it in a way that reassures them you are there for them and always will be.
I think your choice is between continuing to cosleep and accept difficult bedtimes and disrupted nights, and just ride it out until it improves naturally, or get stricter. I realise the latter must be a difficult prospect as a single parent without practical and moral support. I know it’s not the same but mumsnetters will be here to support if you do want to try a different strategy.

Thanks Ruby. You've made me feel like not quite the crappiest Mum in the world.

Sometimes you have to do things that are inconvenient or not quite ideal. And while Peppa Pig at 3am is not what I aspired to when I had kids, on balance it means DD1 can stay asleep, I can doze while DD2 watches it next to me which means I'm not getting worked up and irritable with her. Just to stress that it's not my first response, it's really used as a last resort. And actually, it keeps her a bit more chilled than if she didn't have it on when she will just sing to herself or try to jump and climb on everything. Like I say, it would never appear in a parenting manual, but I think the advice to do what you have to do to get by definitely would. And if that bloody obnoxious pig is the answer sometimes, then so be it!

No advice expect don't be too hard on yourself! It sounds like they and you have been through a lot. Would the older one sleep in her own room if younger DD was in with you? I still co sleep with DD (2) but she is in a toddler bed next to my bed so it's not as painful, she sometimes gets in but more often than not she stays in her bed. Now if I could just get her in her own room!

Thanks namechange. It is bloody hard at times. Especially when they come back from their dad and routine has gone out the window. I do think for now, given the recent changes with DD1 starting school and DD2 changing rooms as nursery that I do need a somewhat gentler approach. As I said I've started a new bedtime routine and I think that will help to set up a bit of consistency for them. DD1, once she's properly settled at school will be easier to deal with. I'm thinking that from 1st December, the encouragement to stay in her bed all night could be appropriately rewarded by Father Christmas. DD2 really is my bigger challenge, but I was talking to my counsellor yesterday about her night time wide awake stints and she said that it's possible she's worried about something/seeking reassurance, so I don't want to be too harsh on her. She's also found her big sister starting school quite difficult, she really misses her which is lovely that they have a strong bond but sad that she feels her absence. She's also reduced breastfeeding a lot and I think that could be getting to her emotionally. It's also another reason I resort to Peppa - it gets her off my boob for a while and when she sucks and pinches continuously it really starts to hurt.

nowifi I've thought about that. There's not the space in my bedroom for DD2 to have a bed in it, but I have thought about setting DD1 up in my room for a while, while I work on getting DD2 to sleep better. The thing is though, that DD1 tends to come in to my bed after DD2 has, so I don't think it's the disruption in that respect.

I do like on a fairly busy road, traffic wise, and their bedroom is at the front. DD1 said to me recently that it's the cars outside that wake her up. I've considered moving, but we've only been here since the beginning of the year and another move would likely be unsettling in other ways. I'm wondering about a white noise machine to try to drown it out. We had Ewan the Sheep but I'm not sure where he's ended up between the various house moves. He might help if I could find him!

I read all the Gina Ford twins book before I had my two and learned all about how babies would gently learn to sleep and go all through the night. Sadly my DTs hadn't read it and refused to sleep properly for months

I don't think mine fully understand the concept of reward charts yet, otherwise I'd definitely give that a go! I honestly think that when they are so small and can't fully (or perhaps even partly) communicate everything that they're going through, it has to manifest somewhere, and unfortunately for us it usually gets taken out on the person they're closest to - ie Mummy. I don't necessarily mean the big things like life changes even; simple toddler hormones can make them chuck massive wobblies for no apparent reason, so I can well believe that they would wake up at night because they're worried!

I'm assuming that your DDs are properly tired before they go to bed, but could something like a late afternoon/ early evening swimming or gymnastics session help? Or is that not practical?

If you have to stick Peppa sodding Pig on occasionally to give you a break, well, it's not the end of the world. Could you buy a Kindle Fire or similar to dim the lighting rather than the 'glare' of a phone though? You may be able to get a cheaper tablet that does it, we have the Kindles and they definitely do 'blue shade', plus it's useful for car journeys - not just night time desperation

OK so the very first line of your first post was asking for advice about improving their sleep, but the more you post the more it seems that you don’t really want advice on that, just reassurance that you’re doing the right thing and maybe a bit of support... am I reading it right?

I took your opening line at face value and I still think that to improve the sleep you need to get stricter. BUT it sounds as if there are other things that are more important than improving sleep atm, namely helping them feel settled... and maybe helping you feel settled as well.

I had to do gentle sleep training with DS in the end, and it went better than I thought, we are sleeping better and we are happier since we did it, BUT it took me a long time to feel that DS - and I! - were ready.

You mentioned earlier about feeling like a crap Mum and I hope I didn’t contribute to that feeling, if I did I’m very sorry. You sound like a fantastic mum to me. Your girls are going to be fine. Just make sure you get sleep when you can, and don’t be afraid to change things if they’re not working any more.

Oh that's interesting, I assumed a screen would be the same regardless. I'll have a look at a kindle fire. If I'm going to use that as a coping method then it would be better to get something that has less impact.

I think DD1 is overtired which is the problem. But she seems to be settling down after starting school. DD2, who knows. She just never seems to need sleep!

namechange30 I know I've probably been contradictory and I haven't meant to be. I suppose I'd like the reassurance that what I've done up to now hasn't been awful or damaging, but at the same time I do want the advice as what I'm doing isn't working. I haven't meant to shoot the advice down and I'm sorry if it has come across that way.

I suppose the way that I think and feel about approaching the sleep problems is inconsistent and that probably manifests inconsistently to them which is likely not helping.

I'm happy to continue with DD1 the way she is. It's not awful. There's a bit of a fight at bedtime and she'll come in to my bed around 4/5am but she'll settle and ultimately she's getting an okay amount of sleep.

Prior to yesterday, I was fully prepared to overhaul DD2s sleep habits and do whatever it took, but the conversation with my counsellor made me see a slightly different perspective - that perhaps she's worried/anxious too. So now that I see that, I don't want to do something that will upset her. I wish I could work out why she's awake for such a long time in the night. As I say, she doesn't do it for my parents or her Dad, so is she just craving some attention and comfort from me? Is she worried that she's going to be away from me again and Just wants to have me close? It frustrates the hell out of me, but she seems just as content touching/fiddling with my nipples as she is from actually feeding from them, which makes me think it's a security for her. Not just me, but my breasts specifically. As weird as that sounds, my breasts have been a consistent factor in her life since birth. I guess she maybe sees it as "if they're there, then it's all ok".

In some ways I wish I could be stricter. When my partner is here he will encourage me not to give in to them. Not in a horrible way but when I am putting my foot down and my resolve is waning, he'll give me a look of encouragement. It's hard to do that for yourself.

Practical suggestion. DD1 could sleep over at your parents’ and/or her dad’s for a few nights while you sleep train DD2. You might not want to sleep train though, you don’t sound the type to be up for it I wasn’t until I got desperate and then we did it pretty gently. There was some crying (it was angry crying not distressed crying) but I was there to comfort and reassure and it really didn’t last long. Anyway you do what you’re comfortable with. But “cry it out” isn’t the only way (and it’s not really recommended by anyone anyway).

You might not be ready but when you are I reckon you’ll need DD1 to sleep elsewhere for a few nights while you get started. Even if it’s not “fixed” before she comes home, the hardest bit will be done. (fixed in speech marks because it’s never completely fixed, in our case it’s much improved but not perfect, and that’s ok.)

Cross post, I didn’t mean to ignore yours!

Honestly you remind me of myself I was so torn for ages, I’d ask for advice and then argue with it. I just wasn’t ready to follow it. If you’re not ready that’s ok.

I totally get it about having a partner to help you stay strong. In the middle of the night when I cracked, my husband was fast asleep and it was my Mumsnet friends who got me through. So maybe you could find that support elsewhere too?

Haha. Yes. I agree that with your assessment that I don't sound the type to be up for sleep training. In principle, it sounds great. But in reality, it's really bloody hard. With DD1 the HV suggested cry it out. I lasted 1 minute outside her bedroom of her crying, I went in, comforted her and working 2 seconds of the 2 minute stretch I gave in and went to her.

I know I'm being too emotional about this, but when they were in NICU I saw babies cry and cry in their incubators and the nurses couldn't go to them right away as they had clinical tasks to do, so these tiny babies just cried. I'm well aware that when I wasn't there mine probably did the same. I hate that thought. I don't want them to relive it.