4yo and 2yo sleep hell

[MummySharkDooDooDooDoo]

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can attempt to get my children to sleep better?

Both have never been great sleepers. DD1 (4yo) used to have a brilliant bedtime routine. DD2 (2yo) had a good routine for a while and they would both be in bed for 7, asleep by 8 most nights. This was when DD2 was 6 months old. Since then, me and my XH split up, me and the DCs moved in with my parents for a while and then in to our own place at the beginning of this year. They share a bedroom and doing bedtime on my own is near impossible.

DD2 is still breastfed, despite me trying to stop. She will now take a bottle for me and she only breastfeeds for comfort. When she's with anyone else she will go to sleep without milk and will sleep through the night. For me, she wakes twice on average each night, she'll come in to my bed and I let her as I don't want her to wake DD1. Some nights she can be up for hours - saying she's hungry, having milk (bottle and breast), chatting etc.

DD1 won't settle to sleep on her own. She was badly affected by the break up and she needs to be cuddled in bed to go to sleep. Since starting school she's overtired and bedtime is protest after protest - she's not tired, she's too hot, she wants water, sometimes she'll tantrum. She will wake up at some point in the night - usually 4am onwards and come in to my bed.

I wake up most mornings with them both in my bed with me.

I know that a lot of this is my own doing and I probably should have been stricter earlier, but there was so much upheaval and they needed comfort following the separation so I did what I had to do to get through it.

The night time wakings seem to be getting worse, not better, and I know that's likely due to DD1 starting reception and it's been a change of routine for us all. But I just don't know what to do. Partly, because they share the same bedroom, I have to do what I can to minimise disruption to the other one - I couldn't let DD2 CIO for example (I'm not sure if I'd want to anyway) as it would disrupt DD1 who needs to get to sleep for school the next day.

I'm at a loss. It feels like I've tried everything. I'm exhausted from all the night time waking and the early starts, DD1 is exhausted and DD2 seems to be some unnatural creature who can survive on minimal amount of sleep.

Help!!!

Yes, you're right namechange. You do need a bit of cheerleading to get you through it and MN could be a good solution.

Thank you for all of your messages and suggestions.

Ok a few final things

Firstly most HVs are crap and give terrible advice!
Secondly how old was she and was it CIO or controlled crying? Had you already tried gradual retreat? Anyway that’s all by the by now...
Lastly a premature baby crying because they need milk or cuddles is a VERY different thing from an older baby crying because they don’t want to sleep and would much rather have a midnight feast and film fest

Good luck with working out what to do and getting through it.

I reckon you're right OP, your DD2 just wants to make sure that you're there, and gets comfort from that. Do you get any one on one time with her during the day? If not, perhaps she also sees it as your time together?

Google 'Kindle Fire blue shade' and it will explain what I mean about the glare. Other tablets may do it but we only have the Kindle Fire kids ones. We got them for about £50 each though on a Black Friday-type deal, if you can hold out till Amazon do an offer - I think £50 is a lot for a kids tablet.

Honestly DTS1 could get by with 2/ 3 hours less sleep than DTS2 and it doesn't seem to affect him..... but from what you've said your DD2 could do with more sleep, she just doesn't want to sleep as it impacts on her 'mummy time'. If she's changed rooms at nursery too then it could be that's also affected her sleep pattern.

I can imagine it's really, really hard without someone there to at least bounce ideas off though. Sending you and !

I think NameChange has hit the nail on the head by the way OP, about whether you'd rather try to improve your DDs' sleep or simply find ways of coping and know 'this too shall pass'. Either is fine, it's whatever works for your family

By the way if you are a member of your local library, they probably have plenty of kids' books about sleeping that you could borrow/ order for free with a child's card, if your DDs would read/ listen to stories about it? I'm hoping to use this stealth method of encouragement with my two...!

Would it be worth putting a spare mattress/airbrd on their bedroom floor and just accepting for the foreseeable future that you'll be sleeping there? My DD (3yr3mo) sleeps brilliantly when either me or DH is asleep on her floor, and is up and down like a yo yo when we're not there.

We've just made the decision that it won't last forever, but if it means one of us sleeping on her floor ensures that we all get a decent nights sleep, then it worth it for the moment. I think she still wakes but she must realise we there and turn over go back to sleep. Better a comfortable night sleep on her floor than screaming all night or having her kick in my bed.

10mo DS is a totally different ball game tho, still bf him to sleep now - am one tiredl mama!

Whatever happens, it's just a phase and will pass, I'm a great believer in doing what you need to get by, even if it's constantly changing and evolving. Good luck, sleep deprivation is horrible!

Mine are more or less the same age and share a room and I totally get the challenges of getting them to sleep and keeping them asleep so that one doesn’t disturb the other!

DS has also just started school, he’s been overtired but refusing to go to bed. Contrary to all advice I’ve found it easier to let him stay up a bit later and be guided more by him as to when he wants to go to bed. So now rather than me pushing him to go at 7.30 and him messing around and not going to sleep till after 9, we take it easy and relax and play and he goes to bed and to sleep at 8.30 or so with no arguments. He seems to wake up in the morning in a better mood too - and is coming into our bed less so win win (so far!)

DD I had exactly the same re feeding and waking during the night. She always goes to bed around 7.20 or so. Her nighttime wakings were getting worse and worse and disturbing her brother. So I moved him into our bed for a few nights and I stayed in their room - dd would wake and shout and scream, I would comfort her a bit (never taking her out of the cot and not feeding her) and then stay in the room but leave her to it, she complained but didn’t get hysterical crying as she knew I was in the room with her. It took a few nights but gradually she got better and now doesn’t really wake during the night. I stopped feeding her during the night, only in the morning, and then started giving her a bottle in the morning instead of boob and she seemed to accept that no problem. Books seemed to help keep her distracted from feeding (and flicking through photos on my phone!)

You’re doing the best job you can - it’s horrendously difficult at the best of times and you’ve had so much change to deal with too. Sometimes what’s easiest for us as parents to do is actually the best thing overall.

I started giving my daughter a sweet evey morning that she had stayed in her own bed all night. Works really well (obviously not popular with the teeth ppl on mumsnet tho!)
Basically there's a bag with some sweets /chocolate in it and we call it her 'special secret surprise bag'. As soon as she gets up she gets to choose a sweetie. Started doing this when we had a phase of her waking up and wanting to come in with us or get me to climb in with her.
The downside is that now her sleep is fine but she still gets the treat! But the immediate reward might work for you.
My daughter started school in August (Scotland) and she did wake in the night for a few weeks, it's a big change for them but that settled down. So maybe give yourself a week or two, relax a bit, then focus on the younger one.

Good luck!

I know it's not ideal but personally I would just co sleep in a king sized bed. I currently do this for 2 year old bf toddler. My middle 5 year old sleeps with his dad and brother but if they weren't there, he would sleep with me as he gets lonely..it's a bit of a pain getting out when they do sleep together, but they stay asleep for longer together because of the sound of each others breathing / warmth keeps them feeling safe..if 2 year old wakes up just bf back to sleep.. knock Peppa on the head in the night. If you have to use white noise on Spotify (like waterfalls, waves etc) as you have pointed out. As I said, it's not great but it will save you having to wake up properly multiple times in the night and you get some semblance of sleep yourself.

Thanks all, we stayed at my parents last night as I collapsed in the night the night before - got checked out yesterday and the doctor thinks I've got labrynthitis. My Mum got DD2 to sleep and she slept through the night until nearly 8am!

I know full well that the problem is me. She knows that if she wakes up and I'm there I'll give in to what she wants. My reasons for giving in are understandable - I don't want DD1 to wake up, I'm exhausted and need to sleep too - but I need to break this cycle.

I have something of a plan. Tonight we are staying at my parents' house again and I am going to attempt to get DD2 to sleep without milk. She has a cot here which will make it easier and she doesn't share with her sister here so disruption can be kept to a minimum. Plus, if it gets too much I can ask one of my parents to stay with her for a few minutes while I regroup.

It really is a battle of wills and DDs are stronger than mine as I've been running on empty and trying to encourage myself when it's like that is really hard. But I know I need to be firmer. I don't like the idea of leaving her to cry on her own, but I intend to only stay in the room with her if she's laying down and settled. If she starts playing up, demanding, shouting etc, I'll leave the room (but only for a short time).

I know it's going to be hard but I need to do this. Expect me on here at bedtime having a meltdown!

Sounds sensible OP. FWIW I did something very similar. I will check in tonight if I can. Good luck and if it gets hard, remind yourself why you’re doing it!

Thanks namechange. How long did it take for you to see any benefit when you did something similar? I know it will vary, but I don't think I could stick it out if it was hours of hell for weeks on end. I do know that the second night is likely to be worse than the first.

Good luck Mummy and hope you are feeling better!!

If your DD genuinely wants milk in the night could you just give her a bottle and leave her to it? My DTs are often still hungry in the night it's getting less but at least it's easier to give them milk than have them wake up the other. Once they realised they could have milk but no attention it got better!

Thinking of you at bedtime - I've just ordered the Lumie bedbug thing, will let you know how we get on with that

She is a really crap eater but with me she'll have a bottle of milk before bed plus breastfeed and she wakes up more in the night than when she doesn't have milk when she's with my parents, even though she eats much the same. If she eats badly tonight then I might fill her up with some weetabix before I take her to bed so I can satisfy myself that she can't be hungry.

Argh, I just wrote a longish post explaining what we did and how long it took, but I lost it
The short version is that we did it gradually and in stages, so overall it took a while but he didn’t take very long at all to adapt to each stage, and the really difficult parts (with lots of crying) were mercifully very brief.

So it depends exactly what you do, but as long as you’re consistent I don’t think it should take longer than a few nights.

PS We started when DS was 10 months old hence doing it so gradually, in hindsight though I think we could have done it more quickly and maybe should have!

Bedtime is approaching. DD2 hasn't eaten brilliantly but she is exhausted. I thought she was going to fall asleep on my lap just because she'd got worked up about not wanting to eat anymore, but my mother chose that moment to be discouraging and said if she goes to sleep now she'll wake up because she's hungry. She's been making remarks for ages about how breastfeeding is the problem and I need to get stricter, and now that I'm attempting to do something she's not being very supportive.

I'm cuddling her while she sobs and cries "I want Mummy milk", "please Mummy!"

I tried putting her in her cot but she was so upset. She was still upset in my arms but at least she was being comforted.

She's stopped screaming. I think she's cried herself to sleep. But she's still sobbing in her sleep.

Oh no. The "please Mummy" has just started again.

She's asleep in her cot. She fell asleep in my arms. I held her until the sobbing stopped and then put her in. It probably took just 10 minutes.

Aw, well done. Hope rest of night is ok.

Sorry your mum was unsupportive But don’t listen, you’re doing the right thing.

Thank you. It will be more difficult to refuse her during the night when everyone is asleep and I know she could wake them up. At my parents house, when we stay here I'm in the same room as her, so last night I purposely slept downstairs because I think that she wakes up, sees me and starts crying/whining because she knows she'll get to come in to bed with me and have a cuddle and milk. So last night I slept on the sofa and she slept through. I'm going to do the same tonight and see if it works. It may not as last night I wasn't here and my mum got her to sleep. Whereas tonight I did so she knows I'm around. But I still think it's worth a go. Although a sofa isn't ideal to sleep on, at least I can get some sleep...hopefully!

Ultimately, I know that if she will sleep, I will sleep and that will make us all much happier! That's what I need to remind myself of in the middle of the night.

Hope it's going ok Mummy! I went out to a friend's this evening - first time I've been out in the evenings for months - DP is now moaning that the DC were a nightmare to put to bed. Apparently DTS2 went into meltdown when he realised that mummy wasn't there..... which I feel slightly bad about but DP needs to learn to cope a bit better, and I was desperate to not be stuck in the house with them all the time!!

I'm glad you had an evening off Ruby. I'm sure it was difficult for your DP, but it's difficult for you every night!!!! Ultimately, you're only half of their parents, it shouldn't all be left to you.

My night wasn't wonderful. DD2 woke about 2.30. Initially I fed her out of habit, exhaustion and wanting to stop her crying. But after about 5 minutes I stopped her and told her no more. She protested with some "please Mummy" but I've found that if I say no the first time she says it and ignore subsequent "please Mummy"s, she'll stop saying it and doesn't cry, she'll just lay quietly. In the end she was up until 5! But in that time I didn't feed her despite her asking and protesting. I cuddled her and rocked her. A few times she fell asleep in my arms or laying on my chest, but then when I'd try to move her she'd wake. She was obviously worried about me not being there. In the end she fell asleep next to me in bed. I turned my back to her so she couldn't help herself to milk.

Annoyingly, DD1 (who slept through the night which is even more unusual when we're at my parents house) came in at 6.45 and woke DD2 up.

So not a great night sleep wise but I'm proud of myself for sticking with it and being firm (after the initial loss of will power!)

Well done Mummy 👏

It was tough this time (and you are probably exhausted!) but hopefully next time your DD will realise that you're not giving in. It sounds like really she just wants to make sure you're there for her? The milk is simply a bonus!

Both DTs want to know exactly where I am this morning - lots of "Mummy, where are youuuuuuu?" being shouted around - my social life is pretty much zero at the moment anyway so they don't have much to worry about...

I now have something of a dilemma. DD2 went to sleep much the same as last night - no milk, crying in my arms but being comforted. The problem is that she woke up about 45 minutes ago, very upset and she has a fever. I breastfed her but only for a few minutes then stopped. She wasn't happy. I gave her ibuprofen and some milk in a bottle and she's now settled to sleep in my bed (as I said that she started coughing and now she's fidgeting so not really settled). It's not ideal that she's in my bed and it's not ideal that I breastfed her again. But I can't be too strict with her if she's not well. But at the same time, I don't want to undo what has been done last night and tonight. I'm not sure what to do. Do you think mini breastfeeds if she wakes, just to settle her as she's not well? Followed by being firm about no more?