Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

[tinkerbellhadpiles]

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

But Kiskidee - teaching your child to settle themselves (I hate the phrase controlled crying) is a very positive thing.

If it involves a few tears along the way, surely that's better than having a child who is exhausted (not to mention the poor parents).

I must admit that I am getting frustrated at the implication that unless you co-sleep and are prepared to accept that your child will wake as often as he/she likes and need settling through the night that you are not a postive parent. That's crap IMO.

kiskidee, but you can read as much as you like...As a MN/NNEB I've cared for many babies through the 3/4mth stage & you are making a huge sweeping generalisation there!

I think I'll go and plant some potatoes too.

indeed on the co-sleeping thing - DS1 co-"slept" and didn't sleep at all - and couldn't sleep on his own, or be moved once asleep.

DS2 didn't co-sleep and slept like a dream from 3 weeks old......

If you really felt that people were at liberty to disagree with you, you would not suggest that they "do more reading". This implies that they are wrong anyway and moreover, less well informed than you are!

loadsanappies, too true!

I find in life that experience counts for a lot more than how many books one has read!

I've seen lots of babies with sleeping problems.

Who have not learnt to settle themselves and are not given opprtunities to do so and therefor end up overtired, distraught and involved in sustained bouts ofcrying that no amount of cuddles or contact can stop..

I've seen that alot.

Yes CC will involve some crying initially (but not abandonmet) but overall I think that those babies who get sufficient sleep,and are not allowed to become overtired are happier and cry less. Much less. In older baies I would even say that overtiredness is one of the major reasons for sustained crying.

Falling asleep at the breast, on Daddies chest etc are also conditioned responses. And unfortunately ones which cannot necessarily be reacreated everytime a baby needs to sleep, therfore they easily become over tired. If you can condition another response that means that they get the sleep they need so are generally happier, why not do that?

kiskidee, you appear to be attempting to take a higher moral stance on this issue, that I don't think is valid.

I agree...
I also find it amusing that people think they can use the "live & let live" line as some sort of disclaimer before (or after) wading in with the most dogmatic and/or prejudicial comments. So very shallow!

kiskidee - i was wondering where you were

I have used the phrase before today - it's a no brainer.

I am not a complicated soul. I just want happy babies - because when they are miserable so am I.

When my babies sleep well - they are happy. When they don't they aren't.

No brainer.

I lead and teach my children (condition them if that's a word you prefer). I do this because it is my job.

Kiskidee, your post about me reading more was condescending in the extreme. It didn't upset me though because I am confident enough in my choices for my children not to let narrow minded rhetoric influence me.

I'm not one for shouting about my experience per se but some people really wind me up when they take the moral high ground!.

I have at least 14 Babies under my belt & they have all been sleep conditioned & slept through the night at 5mths! [smug emoticon]

Everyone has to do what is right for their own family, co-sleeping isn't beneficial for many families for many reasons!

I've seen evidence of this to Psycho.
My wee lad finds napping pretty easy, as well as sleeping through the night but my baby girl needs to be encouraged to sleep, particularly in the daytime. Without her regular naps and a good night's sleep, she is really miserable. I'm not such a routine junkie that I stick rigidly to nap times etc, but in many respects I wish I did because sometimes, I don't see the over-tiredness coming until it's too late.

djags/Scottish - really on board with what you are saying.

I'm a new mum looking after twins and have no family support locally. My dh works long hours 6 days per week. We can't afford childcare.

For me to be any sort of a mum during the day (plus manage cleaning/shopping/washing etc), I just have to have enough sleep at night. Getting the twins settled in to a bedtime routine was an absolute priority & has been fantastic.

When I wake up at 6.30 after a good night's kip, I am ready to face the day, looking forward to what we three will do together and equipped to deal with any problems that might come up. When I was being woken up hourly through the night, I was like the walking dead in the daytime & I know that my parenting suffered.

scottishthistle - 14 babies ! you must work with them?????

my worry is what if it doesnt appear to be working? i have toyed many times with cc or variations thereof, but ds gets really beside himself. when do you say this isn't gonna work? do you leave a max time between visits before stopping ior just keep going? i wonder whether his crying is distress at me not nursing him/being there or frustration at not being able to get to sleep.would cc at bedtime stop nigtwakings? if lo nurses to sleep do you wake before putting in cot or commence cc with first waking?

Can I ask you some advice Scottish Thistle ? (or anyone else who might have any ideas).

I try and get my twins to have a long nap after lunch. This has generally taken place in the pushchair. Problem is that we have a travel system, so the twins are actually napping in car seats (slotted in to the buggie) which they are rapidly outgrowing. I fear I have made a rod for my back as now neither of them will settle in their cots at lunchtime. I tried it again today, and my baby boy just screamed the house down.

Any thoughts on how I might get them to kip in their beds ?

Cruisemum!, yes of course I'm a Nanny with a lot of newborn experience!

loadsanappies, hats off to you as I've done weekend care for Twins & it's hard work for 48hrs let alone when you've been up several times in the night for months!

Loadsanappies do you use sleeping bag/blanket swaddling?

Cruisemum - not sure what the answer is as I seem to be having the same problem as you with nap times. The cc worked at night but is not working during the day at all. God its a minefield.

Well, they sleep in sleeping bags at night but I haven't been putting them in them during the day as I am worried about them getting confused between day and night or starting to have bad associations with being put in the cot (I'm worried that if I push to hard, I'll disrupt bedtime in the pursuit of sorting out the nap time!). D'you think I should try them in their sleeping bags ?

Cruisemum1, you do whatever method you feel most comfortable with.

Ideally you want to put a baby down whilst still awake though it can't be helped if baby falls asleep whilst having last feed.

When I use cc I start by leaving baby for 2mins then 2min gaps after that every time going in to comfort then leaving with no fuss (I know this is much easier when you're not a Mother)...As the nights go on I widen the gaps...All babies are different & some respond quicker than others.

Loadsanappies, I'd try putting them in the sleeping bags as this is the routine they already associate with sleep, don't worry about them confusing night with day.

Thanks - I'll give that a go tomorrow.
Must dash now - time for tea!

Sorry but ffs you have a five month old who wakes ONCE.

Waking to feed once at 2-3am was what I was aiming for with ds. He was waking every 1-2 hours and would often be awake for 1-2 hours at a time. I had 7 months of this until I took it in hand tried a form of controlled crying.

tbh the amount of crying involved in the CC was less than when I wasn't doing CC because ds used to cry whatever you did. Picking him up/breastfeeding/cuddling - none of it worked often, though occasionally one would work - just enough to keep you hoping. He always got more worked up when I tried to comfort hime but I kept trying because I thought as you do that by not going I was harming ds.

In retrospect I should have done the modified version of CC that I did do earlier because he'd have slept more and cried less as a result.

As for Elizabthe Pantley (the no cry sleep solution)- it is based on the fact that you can keep going back to 'your normal way of calming' anytime it gets too stressful. That way (she says)you won't get any crying. Well what the f*k do you do if nothing stops the crying in the first place. Pretty useless for me though I appreciate others have found her good.

I didn't do any form of real controlled crying, I started with nap times and through desperation and exhastion I would selectively ignore some of his wake-ups. I used my judgement and went in if I thought he sounded very distressed. I also stopped responding to every whimper.

After a few days he started napping better and his night sleep just improved at the same time so that he woke once for a feed, went back to sleep and then woke for the day at 5am (sometimes earlier). This was fine with me too - after the hell of the previous 8 months it would have been.

I would just like to say that kiskidee, I completely disagree with you! What on earth are you going on about! You talk about babies as if they are some kind experiment or something!
Our dd was in our room til 8 months old. We used the cc method for 3 nights and it worked a treat. She is a very affectionate, well balanced, loving, inteligent little girl. Who by the way loves her bed and sleeps very well! I accept there are different and effective methods. Why cant you!