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Can I please have your honest opinions on CC? HV is recomending I am not sure.

374 replies

eenybeeny · 02/03/2007 12:47

My HV is recomending CC for my 6 month old.

Our problems with his sleep are these:

  1. He only naps in his pram. He screams and screams when I try to get him to nap in his cot during the day.
  1. He wakes up to 6 times a night for one thing or another.
  1. He wakes anywhere from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. and is ready for the day.

Please give me any advice you have and let me know... is CC cruel? I really dont know. Normally, the thing is, when he cries I want to rush to him to help him. I dont know if I can leave him to cry. Please help!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
amijee · 10/03/2007 15:02

sakura -

I think it's extremely insulting to relate someone's gender to their parenting views - women are not the only parents or caregivers.

My dh is the primary carer of my 7 mth old ds while I am at work - he has every right to have a view on cc - the same as daddy j.

I would like to clarify one thing - the difference between night wakings in young children and CONTINUAL constant disruptions to everyone's sleep.

Of course babies cry. Of course babies don't sleep thru. But let's get this in perspective. I'm talking about on some nights my ds sleeping no more than 1 hour straight from 9pm until 7am. And I'm supposed to cope with it by having PMA? (positive mental attitude) And btw, I breast feed him constantly but it only settles him for a short time.

ps - daddy j, the reason we have taken a retrograde step is we are abroad visiting family and can't let him cry it out. We'll be back on track as soon as we are home.

eenybeeny · 10/03/2007 17:27

Ok - As I said my DH and I have decided against CC for Alex at this stage in his life. It may change I dont know but all I know now is we dont want to do it. And Sakura I agree with you on the basis that people without children are on shaky ground when it comes to spouting advice. BUT - MEN - FATHERS - have feelings and opinions too. Ok some men arent that interested and if yours is one of those I am sorry. But some men are extremely interested in their little ones and I know my DH has just as strong views on what is good for Alex as I have. And he is, in some ways even 'softer' than me when it comes to Alex crying.

Anyway I am not having a go at you - really I am not. I just wanted to point out that although I (think) from what I have been able to read of this long thread, that I disagree with some of DaddyJ's points, I dont object to him having them on the basis that he is a father. Hopefully he loves his child as much as my DH loves ours and in that case he is well qualified to have an opinion on her care.

OP posts:
eenybeeny · 10/03/2007 17:30

I also think that with all the debate CC is down to opinion only. I dont think either side can prove what is right or wrong because we cant get inside the babies heads. Ok its a debate that can only be had by parents?

By the way I dont think you can try to use science to back it up or disprove it - the very foundation of crying is emotion not science so you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. They are two different things, science and emotion.

OP posts:
TrinityRhino · 10/03/2007 17:34

I can't help but say I am so glad to hear that you have decided against it eenybeeny

Beachcomber · 10/03/2007 17:45

Thanks for the link Kiskidee, looks interesting, I'll check it out when I have the time.

I think I'll leave you to it here as I'm not sure that I'm talking about the same subject as the posters who disagree with cc.

I'm not talking about long bouts of crying in order to stop a baby from having natural night awakenings that quite rightly require parental comfort. I'm taking about babies are exhausted and who become distressed by parental intervention (probably as it is overstimulating) being allowed to settle themselves.

I'm not talking about not being able to have a good attitude to caring for one's baby, but having the humility to understand and accept that YOU are not always the solution to all your child's difficulties.

Beachcomber · 10/03/2007 17:53

Ooops, meant; babies who are exhausted

bloss · 10/03/2007 21:34

Message withdrawn

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 06:49

sorry for the delay. i have a sick child at home and daddy is away.

"bloss, i have never relied on any study which mentioned romanian children in orphanages. any information i have used in these discussions come from sites on the net."

if you read this statement carefully. it doesn't say that i have not looked at any research myself. remember somewhere below i said i had a friend who did a master's in mental health? she also works in clinical mental health at the moment. not with children but through her I have had access to other research. as i said even further down, i am nerdy in that kind of way.

i have for a while also been questioning why i am having this debate with you. on several fronts which i think is now pertinent to raise since you have questioned now, i believe twice, why you are talking to me.

firstly, you have not even once volunteered to show evidence for your views on parenting. i am not saying you shouldn't hold them and have to justify them to anyone. I am saying that i have clarified where all the information i share come from and why but i would like to see you share something which us that further clarifies how you came to your parenting decisions.

your post on Sat 10-Mar-07 at 07:00:24 - is so widely presumptive and dismissive of everything it is almost frightening (and would be embarrasing to me if i had made it.) and makes me wonder why you are talking to me.

so

secondly, I use these three links because they provide are evidence based information on the material they publish on the net. You may be able to find some of the rearch they relied on on the net, or go to your library and ask them to provide the information if you were interested in more. These sites, with the exception of the continuum concept ones, contain material lifetime researchers in some of the most respected teaching and research universities on the planet. if they are not good enough for you to read with an open and humble mind, then i am afraid nothing is good enough for you. hence why i now truly feel like i am wasting my time talking to you.

thirdly, these links on these sites would take you to other accedited research institutions with some fascinating fields of study of the behavioural and developmental psychology, and cross-cultural anthropological studies to name a few. it is a pity i feel like you are willing to throw out the baby with the bath water.

If you are really, truly interested, you would actually read some of the documents carefully on the sites - cross reference them even if you like and check the histories of who made them - and then take a measured response - from an analytical pov. not a pre-supposed one. some of these sites, especially the american ones, you'll even be able to see the full CV of some of the people who are publishing this stuff on the web. these are not people who have an interest in supporting one parenting style or another. these are people who have made careers in science and then go on to teach people to get their own doctorate degrees. they are more trained than you or I to comment on their topics of study.

" Or have you simply relied on the statements and arguments made by natural parenting websites" this statement sounds like you are deriding these sites before you have read anything from them. you have said, oh, they are natural parenting websites and we all know what those granola-eating, slingwearing, hairy armpitted, AP mums are all about.

these sites are not anti-cc or pro attachment parenting. they provide evidence why co-sleeping (in its many forms including rooming in) and bf (but that is not part or this discussion) are vital practices today. by default cc diametrically opposed to co-sleeping. that's all.

while we are here, the reason why i hate the AP label being applied is because i come from a culture where children are carried a lot for a time in slings and a lot by siblings, relatives or the neighbourhood children even. that breastfeeds and co-sleeps because taht is what the Maya still do after more than 3,000 of documented history. if that is good enough for them, then it is good enough for me. if that makes you think i am AP then i can accept that, but what i hate is the derision that comes with the term when used by individuals who don't believe in it. not the term, really.

it is also the reason why i read the Continnum Concept in the first place. i was curious to see what this AP thing was all about. i still haven't read Sears (and may never do will) which from what i understand is something of an AP bible.

you have given passionate descriptions of your rl situations and i could have made said what i had done differently or say did you try, etc, etc. but why would I when you are past the stages (i believe) for both your children where it mattered. i refrain from discussing mine because my rl situations are unique so i point people to places where if they read, and then read further than i point, then maybe they can reflect make up their own minds for their own individual circumstances. I am not asking them to buy anything whole hog. I am letting everyone know that I think CC is only a very last resort and here are some things to consider on why it should be so and what you may be able to look at and evaluate your position on your parenting that may repoint, not change, some of your parenting decisions.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 06:51

dismissive of everything - of everything i have said previously (i meant to add. surely i have other things in there i need to clarify.)

bloss · 11/03/2007 07:35

Message withdrawn

bloss · 11/03/2007 07:35

Message withdrawn

bloss · 11/03/2007 07:36

Message withdrawn

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 07:52

Bloss, no scientiest will say taht CC is damaging or safe unless he or she had done a very long study without tying to prove or disprove it.

what they may be able to say is something akin to: it is not a good idea to
a put a child on a strict feeding and sleep routine. something that cc does because without them, cc 'won't work'.

that is the evidence that is out there in the barrel loads which points to the statement above. i chose not to ignore or dismiss it. not because of my hereditary history. i began my time as a mother by reading all the 'wrong' books and thought they were a good idea for months until reality slapped me in the face and i read and reflected and then repointed alot of how i intended to look after my child.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:09

i have talked in the broadest terms on a lot of things because space and time do not allow me to do different. I won't attempt to walk you through any of it because i feel i would be wasting my time. it really is up to you to either have enough respect for me to say 'she is a reasonable person' i can see waht she means, or to go and prove or disprove my statements for yourself. i fully believe i cannot prove anything to you which is why the onus in on you to disprove me or accept what i say on face value.

it is a bit of a guantlet i am throwing down as i still haven't had any idea from you on how you arrived at your parenting decisions besides some emotive posts on your own personal experience. nothing i could look up to corroborate your experience with anyway. so despite my paltry evidence, i have had none from you but still haven't derided that lack.

no, those sites did not 'come from' Continnum Concept. and that is not how i arrived at other as you term them, Natural Parenting sites. I don't even know which, natural parenting sites you mean because you make no references to which they are. A friend mentioned the book. All she really said about it was that it made her start to think that when her toddlers (2 and 4 yrs) are fighting with each other to ask herself why and mostly the reason is because they are bored. I was interested in the book because cultural anthropology is one of my pet favourites and have read cultural anthropology books of other Amazonian indians. It was the first time i had heard of it as i do 'do' natural parenting sites.
The book btw is not a childcare book and that wasn't why it was written. it was adopted into the so-called AP. It doesn't even speak much about the childrearing practices at all.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:12

'as i do 'do' natural parenting sites.'

as i don't 'do' natural parenting sites. i work f/t instead and the only parenting site i visit is MN.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:14

something that cc does because without them, cc 'won't work'.

and i meant to put some brackets around that sentence.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:23

you said: 'you have not referred to a SINGLE study in favour of your claim that scientific evidence is against CC'

no there isn't a single study. there are multiple studies which show that CC can harm children in a variety of ways. which is why i have linked to a multiple of sites and studies. they are to be looked at holistically, (may be the wrong word here) not as a single units and digested over a period of months.

no one study has investigated the safety of cc either. just the effectiveness of curtailing or stopping night time waking and the diaries and questionnaires of parents to say to show that there were no ill effects.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:29

t"here are multiple studies which show that CC can harm children in a variety of ways"

and should add:

by pointing out what are are physiologic and neurological needs of babies and toddlers. once you know what cc is all about, it by default shows that CC is not a good idea and positively harmful in some instances.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 08:30

'physiologic and neurological needs and emotional needs of babies and toddlers ar

sorry

DaddyJ · 11/03/2007 08:53

Ever since this debate started my wife has been asking me with some concern what
a man is doing discussing a highly emotional subject on a forum that was set up for mothers.
I suppose the answer is that my family is the most important thing in life to me
and on Mumsnet I can find people who feel exactly the same way - even if they disagree with
me on certain topics.

Sakura, I once had the same suspicion as you, when I only had dw (very anti-cc) and myself to go on.
But then we started asking other parents about CC and we learned that quite a few
mothers thought it made sense but their partners absolutely hated the idea, it completely went against
their instincts - and they were men.

I have kept an open mind ever since and found lots of reasons why parents choose to do CC (or not)
but from what I have learned fathers can be just as reluctant than mothers to go down that route for various reasons.
I remember a CC support thread where a MNer was complaining that her husband would just
shout at her to please give baby the boob and let them all have a good night's sleep.
In her view: let him have a good night's sleep

When you look at the points beachcomber has made and the anti-CC camp's response you could
jump to the conclusion that only a man could give their kind of advice:
'Stop whingeing about being overtired, woman. It's natural and the sooner you accept this the better for you.
It only lasts a couple of years (per child) anyway.'
And when you then consider that the guru of the Attachement Parenting movement is
Dr. William 'Bill' Sears you could well assume that the whole AP/anti-CC thing is a
male conspiracy designed to put women back where they belong.

I am not arguing that CC is the best option and for everyone. The last posts on the
CC Support thread will show you that.

But it can be a good and safe option that helps the whole family and I think the
advice we give here has to take the whole family into account.
I feel the extreme anti-CC argument (baby should never cry, ever) does not do that.

They argue like people who are desperate to save the whales but forget about the ocean.

amijee, eenybeeny, bloss - thank you

eenybeeny, I wish your HV could see this thread

DaddyJ · 11/03/2007 08:57

kiskidee, you have reopened the scientific debate?

I did not mean to ignore your 'analysis' of the Swedish study but do you still stand by your original post on that?

DaddyJ · 11/03/2007 09:00

zippitippitoes:
"Tackle your own attitude to night waking and you will find that you can cope much better with repeated night waking...a lot of the psychological impact on daily life of feeling you are missing sleep can be handled with better approaches."

Are you a divorce lawyer drumming up business on mumsnet? If I had said that to my wife I would now be seeing my daugther every two weeks for 4 hours and my marriage would have been over.

zippitippitoes · 11/03/2007 09:06

it helps but it's not compulsory as i said a few times already

have you never found that the dread of a sleepless night undermines your whole being? especially that moment just as you are dropping off that the crying starts?

techniques to deal with all the negative feelings really help

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 09:11

I did not mean to ignore your 'analysis' of the Swedish study but do you still stand by your original post on that?

i don't understand why you feel a need to even ask. you are not here to write just for me to read.

kiskidee · 11/03/2007 09:16

'Are you a divorce lawyer drumming up business on mumsnet?' i don't have a clue why this statement was necessary. except out of cheek or downright rudeness.

i said this to dh: 'you get woken up often enough, you learn to fall asleep quickly after you get woken up.' you know what, he did!

that was shortly after dd moved into bed full time with us and after he said, "when she wakes me up it can take me a long time to fall asleep afterwards. sometimes the two of you have gone back to sleep and i am still awake."

adults find it easier than babies to learn new ways of sleeping. i should have cc dh, come to think of it.